Topic: Feedback on 1.3

- install.php doesn't have the password fields set to type=password

- on the "login screen, I dislike the "forgotten" stuff being above the login boxes -- it's like assuming I'm dumb

- the breadcrumb on the admin pages seems redudant considering the nice menu's you've setup

- source order -- I highly value the work that the devs do on Pun, but don't put the credit link in the header

-

WARNING! If you select any scheme other than the default scheme you must copy/upload the file .htaccess from the extras directory into the forum root directory. The server that hosts the forums must be configured with mod_rewrite support and must allow the use of .htaccess files. For servers other than Apache, please refer to your servers documentation.

Do a test to see if you can write the .htaccess file and do it if you can -- don't scare the poor user if you have make their life "click to turn on" simple

- "URL Scheme" needs waaaay more details -- what are the various schemes mean? A few examples of the resulting URLs would really help

- in rewrite.php "header('HTTP/1.x 404 Not Found');" "1.x"? Is that ok?

- if you set the SEF url's to on, and .htaccess isn't working right, it's very difficult to get it turned back off (going to the non-sef url version of the options page has you trying to submit the new option changes to the SEF url which fails.) Need some kind of "Bail me out of SEF" button

- with the included SEF .htaccess, apache fails to recirect correctly on a windows XAMPP install when in a subdirectory. Gives the error [Wed Jan 30 23:54:39 2008] [error] [client 127.0.0.1] script 'F:/xampp/htdocs/rewrite.php' not found or unable to stat, referer: http://127.0.0.1/pun/ adding /pun before /rewrite.php fixes this. Not sure if there's a proper fix though.

- SEF Folder should use "safe" html names in the URL instead of numbers. IMO, /forum/1 is not much more useful than /forum.php?id=1 -- neither tells a user much of anything about the url. Search Engines don't much give a rats tookass about ?id=NNN anymore so that point isn't valid any longer -- it's all about user experience with "SEF"'s. Silly name for them these days.

- Announcement Setting: in a real forum situation, the announce gets used A LOT -- having it buried under so much navigation and scrolling is really troublesome -- it should be pulled out and easier to work with

- "Allow new users to register. Disable only under special circumstances." I'll disable that whenever I dang well please. I suggest removing this "warning".

- "Allow registration with banned e-mail addresses." why this is allowed by default, I do not know. If shouldn't be.

- On the censoring page, if censoring is turned off, perhaps there should be a note to that effect.

- "Maintenance Mode Logout Warning" -- why not write into logout.php a quick check on "if maintenance mode is on, don't allow admin to logout" Would solve the whole issue.

- On the admin pages you tell the user which page they are on in four separate places -- title, bread crumb, highlighted menu/submen, and the {PLACE} text. Overkill in my opinion

- The arrow between pages doesn't graphically make sense -- probably because it's the only non-text item on the page and it's got shading. I'd reduce it so a very simple, flat arrow that looks like text, ie: http://www.cw-chamber.co.uk/images/small_arrow.gif

----------------

That's my 30 minute admin exploration -- I'm looking to dive into extensions later ;D

Re: Feedback on 1.3

I'd actually prefer something like this for the arrow:

U+279C     ?     Heavy round-tipped rightward arrow

If UTF-8 is in anyway, why not use it? smile

Re: Feedback on 1.3

chuyskywalker wrote:

- "URL Scheme" needs waaaay more details -- what are the various schemes mean? A few examples of the resulting URLs would really help

On the other hand, it's quite easy to try one, then another, one, etc. Just one click.

- if you set the SEF url's to on, and .htaccess isn't working right, it's very difficult to get it turned back off (going to the non-sef url version of the options page has you trying to submit the new option changes to the SEF url which fails.) Need some kind of "Bail me out of SEF" button

The fastest way is to have the crude-url version of that page bookmarked. But maybe a link/button would be easier, yup.

- SEF Folder should use "safe" html names in the URL instead of numbers. IMO, /forum/1 is not much more useful than /forum.php?id=1 -- neither tells a user much of anything about the url. Search Engines don't much give a rats tookass about ?id=NNN anymore so that point isn't valid any longer -- it's all about user experience with "SEF"'s. Silly name for them these days.

This is in: try the "fancy" setting.

- "Allow new users to register. Disable only under special circumstances." I'll disable that whenever I dang well please. I suggest removing this "warning".

You are not everyone. The English is very, very slightly, rude, but other than that it's a safe warning for newbies.

- "Allow registration with banned e-mail addresses." why this is allowed by default, I do not know. If shouldn't be.

Yes it should. If one is banned, and get a "this email is banned" error, one will simply enter another dummy (hotmail or whatever) email address. While with this, at least the admin can catch up on the dumb banned.

Re: Feedback on 1.3

elbekko wrote:

I'd actually prefer something like this for the arrow:

U+279C     ?     Heavy round-tipped rightward arrow

If UTF-8 is in anyway, why not use it? smile

Is it included in most (really MOST) default font used by OS&UA?

Re: Feedback on 1.3

Jérémie wrote:
chuyskywalker wrote:

- "URL Scheme" needs waaaay more details -- what are the various schemes mean? A few examples of the resulting URLs would really help

On the other hand, it's quite easy to try one, then another, one, etc. Just one click.

Users shouldn't be made to do extra work when we can provide simple examples. The admin interface uses help elements all over the place as is, so it's certainly not faux-paux to do so.

Jérémie wrote:

- SEF Folder should use "safe" html names in the URL instead of numbers. IMO, /forum/1 is not much more useful than /forum.php?id=1 -- neither tells a user much of anything about the url. Search Engines don't much give a rats tookass about ?id=NNN anymore so that point isn't valid any longer -- it's all about user experience with "SEF"'s. Silly name for them these days.

This is in: try the "fancy" setting.

Sorry, I was unclear. I'd like the folder option + fancy - type_numerals. If you check out the fancy option, it still uses the "forum1-Test-Forum" syntax. The "forum1" should be dropped, there are easy ways to get around doing that which several other software solutions successfully employ.

Jérémie wrote:

- if you set the SEF url's to on, and .htaccess isn't working right, it's very difficult to get it turned back off (going to the non-sef url version of the options page has you trying to submit the new option changes to the SEF url which fails.) Need some kind of "Bail me out of SEF" button

The fastest way is to have the crude-url version of that page bookmarked. But maybe a link/button would be easier, yup.

Getting to the crude-url version of the page isn't the problem -- having it do anything is. When you have SEF on, and you load the crude-url version of that page, the form action value uses the SEF variant of the page url. Since SEF isn't working, this means that trying to submit fails and you can't reset the option.

Jérémie wrote:

- "Allow new users to register. Disable only under special circumstances." I'll disable that whenever I dang well please. I suggest removing this "warning".

You are not everyone. The English is very, very slightly, rude, but other than that it's a safe warning for newbies.

I don't see this needing any special warning, is what I'm getting at. There can't possibly be any question about what this option does and what it means to disable it. I think it's simply excessive.

Jérémie wrote:

- "Allow registration with banned e-mail addresses." why this is allowed by default, I do not know. If shouldn't be.

Yes it should. If one is banned, and get a "this email is banned" error, one will simply enter another dummy (hotmail or whatever) email address. While with this, at least the admin can catch up on the dumb banned.

This is the wrong way to fix that particular problem. When a user signs up with a banned email or IP address, they should not be told what the problem was, but simply that they aren't allowed to register. Anything else is giving the maligned user too much information.

It's like having this kind of error on your login form: "Sorry, the password for joe@joe.com was incorrect". It tells the user too much compared to "That username/password combination failed."

I think the default action here is actually very, very confusing to new admins. Think about it: they ban a user, IP, and email and then that same user comes back with the email again. The admin is left sitting there going, "How the heck did they do that? I banned that email!" cursing the seemingly broken email ban.

I stand by my assertion that this should be off by default so that banned emails are not allowed back in -- however, if it stays like this then it definitely needs to propagate to the banning page with a note next to the email box that "* Email addresses can currently be reused for signups." with a link to the option page to toggle that back

Re: Feedback on 1.3

Jérémie wrote:
elbekko wrote:

I'd actually prefer something like this for the arrow:

U+279C     ?     Heavy round-tipped rightward arrow

If UTF-8 is in anyway, why not use it? smile

Is it included in most (really MOST) default font used by OS&UA?

http://jrm.cc/extras/rarr.html ? works pretty well too. Seems to have the right coverage. However, it would have to be included as a text element in the breadcrumb which probably doesn't fly consider the text output actually reads like this:

No CSS Text wrote:

Back to: PunTest - Back to: Administration - You are here: Install extensions

The goal of which, I imagine, was to make nice for screen readers.

Re: Feedback on 1.3

First of all. Thanks for the report.

chuyskywalker wrote:

Sorry, I was unclear. I'd like the folder option + fancy - type_numerals. If you check out the fancy option, it still uses the "forum1-Test-Forum" syntax. The "forum1" should be dropped, there are easy ways to get around doing that which several other software solutions successfully employ.

I'd love to hear your suggestion for getting around this. The only solution I am aware of is storing a safe URL version (a stub) of the forum and topic titles and then doing a SQL string search for the stub in the respective tables. Not very efficient.

To make things worse, you have to deal with duplicates. You also need to keep URLs permanent, which means storing the old URL stub for forum and topic titles whenever someone changes a title.

"Programming is like sex: one mistake and you have to support it for the rest of your life."

Re: Feedback on 1.3

chuyskywalker wrote:
Jérémie wrote:
elbekko wrote:

I'd actually prefer something like this for the arrow:

U+279C     ?     Heavy round-tipped rightward arrow

If UTF-8 is in anyway, why not use it? smile

Is it included in most (really MOST) default font used by OS&UA?

http://jrm.cc/extras/rarr.html ? works pretty well too. Seems to have the right coverage.

I'd argue the use of  U+279C or ? - but it does depend on what browsers are being supported, and whether tables are involved... I'd have to search my email logs but this was tested ad infinitum a few years ago by another group I am on - the conclusion was that it wasn't cross browser friendly. Though we were testing in a myriad of weird and wondeful browsers I think it may have been a flavour of IE and Konqueror that had issues with it.

my mind is on a permanent tangent
byUsers forum

9

Re: Feedback on 1.3

On the SEF help point. I seem to recall a plan to add something to the help file and then link to it from admin. That way help can be as verbose as we want without cluttering up the form.

I also tested the arrow entity and decided against because somewhere a box showed up instead. I can't remember which browser though. Don't pay much attention to any graphics. The stylesheet really is unpolished and that includes any graphics used.

Re: Feedback on 1.3

Rich Pedley wrote:

I'd argue the use of  U+279C or ?

when typing always read back what actually appears that should have been:
I'd argue against the use of

oops.

my mind is on a permanent tangent
byUsers forum

Re: Feedback on 1.3

Myself, I liked the current arrow. It's slightly too visible/prominent, could be a little less saturated, but it's ok. And a big improvement of the 1.2 » (French closing quotes).

Re: Feedback on 1.3

Rickard wrote:
chuyskywalker wrote:

Sorry, I was unclear. I'd like the folder option + fancy - type_numerals. If you check out the fancy option, it still uses the "forum1-Test-Forum" syntax. The "forum1" should be dropped, there are easy ways to get around doing that which several other software solutions successfully employ.

I'd love to hear your suggestion for getting around this. The only solution I am aware of is storing a safe URL version (a stub) of the forum and topic titles and then doing a SQL string search for the stub in the respective tables. Not very efficient.

To make things worse, you have to deal with duplicates. You also need to keep URLs permanent, which means storing the old URL stub for forum and topic titles whenever someone changes a title.

That's the way that Wordpress works it. Seems to work out pretty well, but it does have that very, very nasty side effect of stub changing 404'ed content.

The simple solution, at least for forum|topic 's would be to setup a table like so:

| stub_id | type | stub | id |  ( primary on stub_id & unique on type,stub )

And anytime a forum/topic is updated, generate a new stub for it. At activation/change, a mass update would need to be done (eek, I know.) Always grab the most recent stub_id when showing urls. This way you can keep the old ones working and keep the old references still working.

The generation process, when hitting duplicates isn't pretty, as one might assume. Usually it simply entails trying to append "-N" to the stub until N++ no longer is a duplicate. Not the best, but a reasonable option, imo.

And your other point about having to do a query against the database to grab the matching ID is true -- but even in a hugely busy site, I would take that trade off.

I suppose my main point boils down to this: Search Engines don't care about ? url's anymore. They haven't for several years now. Friendly URLs are only useful to give people context when looking at links, and the current "SEF" schemes aren't any more people friendly than what was previously available through "?id=N". The fancy set, being the exception, is a step in the right direction, but doesn't really do the trick because we're still stuck with the non-human relevant information.

Perhaps I'm just being too picky, but I think this can be better.


----

While on the subject, I was testing to see if having the URL's for one method would still work when another SEF method was active. IE: What happens when I use both these links?

- http://127.0.0.1/pun/forum1.html
- http://127.0.0.1/pun/forum/1/

Turns out pun happily 200's me on both of them. This is bad mojo in SEO. It's duplicate content under different URL schemes. To "the googles" it is supposed to mean that the person is trying to push content for more relevancy or hits. If possible, it would be good to 301 people to the "official" variant of a URL.

Paul wrote:

I also tested the arrow entity and decided against because somewhere a box showed up instead. I can't remember which browser though. Don't pay much attention to any graphics. The stylesheet really is unpolished and that includes any graphics used.

I kinda figured that was the reason. Same reason I originally said a different graphic would be appropriate.

Re: Feedback on 1.3

Having alot of string lookups for no apparent reason is hugely against PunBB's main idea, which is keeping it simple.
Face it, people copy and paste things. They couldn't give less of a rat's ass if it contains an ID. If they want to know what it's about, look further in the link. Or they'll just load the page and see what it's about.
I see no upside to putting in a feature that's so incredibly useless it would fit nicely in vBulletin.

14 (edited by chuyskywalker 2008-01-31 19:01)

Re: Feedback on 1.3

elbekko wrote:

Face it, people copy and paste things. They couldn't give less of a rat's ass if it contains an ID.

By that same merit there's no reason to have SEF at all.

Re: Feedback on 1.3

No. Read the sentence. Having the title in there is good for people to know what's on the page, and having a little number in there won't throw them off.

Re: Feedback on 1.3

elbekko wrote:

Face it, people copy and paste things. They couldn't give less of a rat's ass if it contains an ID.

I don't. And I do, in fact I use it several times a day to help me navigate.

Yes, I'm a minority. So what? I have rights! I want equal treatment!

17

Re: Feedback on 1.3

chuyskywalker wrote:

- install.php doesn't have the password fields set to type=password
- The arrow between pages doesn't graphically make sense -- probably because it's the only non-text item on the page and it's got shading. I'd reduce it so a very simple, flat arrow that looks like text, ie: http://www.cw-chamber.co.uk/images/small_arrow.gif

Agree, it doesn't match with the rest at all.

I preferred the "old" right angle quote ("»"): it simply worked and it wasn't obtrusive.

Or, if you don't want to use the old sign, why not turn the new arrow into text?
Rightwards arrow: ? | → | ?

Let's say the new path looks like:
PunDemo.org - Register

When I copy it, the pasted result is:
PunDemo.org - You are here:  Register

It just doesn't make sense! Users do not want that, they'd like to copy the path, without all the slickness.

Thank you. :)

Re: Feedback on 1.3

Taimar wrote:

I preferred the "old" right angle quote ("»"): it simply worked and it wasn't obtrusive.

I presume that the idea behind not using that character any longer is that it is not meant to be used as a divider or arrow.

19

Re: Feedback on 1.3

liquidat0r wrote:

I presume that the idea behind not using that character any longer is that it is not meant to be used as a divider or arrow.

Maybe, but PunBB has bigger semantic problems in his code, DIV/SPAN overuse in example.

Greater than (>) and rightwards arrow (?) should work fine. :)
It's text: lightweight and easy to design (themes/skins).

Re: Feedback on 1.3

I don't see any div/span overuse.

Re: Feedback on 1.3

When you open a html page with five consecutive div, that's semantically bullshit. On the other hand, I rather have 5 neutral, meaningless tags like that and an efficient (I didn't say nice, pretty, slick, or whatever... efficient, in every meaning of the word) layout; it's trade off OK by me.

I'm pretty anal about the html source, but Paul has done a good job with PunBB (I wouldn't have chosen tables, but that's a 50/50 here). Pun is (or was not so long ago) the only forum around with strict HTML validation and semantically reasonable source, and that's it main strength.

22 (edited by Taimar 2008-01-31 23:48)

Re: Feedback on 1.3

Starting from top:

#pun-access
#pun-home
#pun-title
#pun-desc
...

They all should be paragraphs or contain paragraphs. I see only DIVs.

Many titles and links (also main navigation links) contain SPAN elements. Wonder why?

Jérémie wrote:

Pun is (or was not so long ago) the only forum around with strict HTML validation and semantically reasonable source, and that's it main strength.

Yeah, it is, and I'm glad. :) It could be better tho...

23

Re: Feedback on 1.3

chuyskywalker wrote:

- source order -- I highly value the work that the devs do on Pun, but don't put the credit link in the header

Yes, and it already says "Powered by PunBB 1.3 Beta" at the bottom as well.

chuyskywalker wrote:

- The arrow between pages doesn't graphically make sense -- probably because it's the only non-text item on the page and it's got shading. I'd reduce it so a very simple, flat arrow that looks like text, ie: http://www.cw-chamber.co.uk/images/small_arrow.gif

Another "agree" here. I'd prefer it as text like it was before.

24

Re: Feedback on 1.3

Semantics is a matter of opinion. My view is that provided a paragraph is inside a <p> then that is semantically appropriate. Since in the real world divs and spans have no real semantic meaning then you cannot say they are semantically incorrect, they actually don't alter the semantics one jot. A paragraph tag nested 1000 deep in divs has for all practical purposes the same sentantic meaning as a paragraph on its own.

People confuse the use of divs and spans with semantics. If you think there are too many divs and spans thats an argument about markup style, nothing to do with semantics unless you think a div or span has been used in place of a semantic tag.

What is or is not a paragph is also a matter of opinion. The board title could just be one word and one word is a text snippet not a paragraph. Anybody care to suggest what the semantically appropriate tag is for an isolated word of text thats not a heading?

As for a text breadcrumb divider being easier to style. The text would be in the markup or the language file but the arrow is merely a background image so the argument is nonensene.

25 (edited by Jarkko 2008-02-01 00:40)

Re: Feedback on 1.3

Paul wrote:

The text would be in the markup or the language file but the arrow is merely a background image so the argument is nonensene.

If you make a new red theme, you need to make a new arrow image because the one in the oxygen style is blue. It's a minor pain in the butt. Although that applies to all of the new style images.