1 Topic by Jérémie (edited by Jérémie 2008-01-31 14:20)

  • From: France
  • Registered: 2004-11-06
  • Posts: 695

Topic: rev1412 English lang pack, minor typographics issues

I sent a svn patch to Rickard about this last night, but it seems it would be better to discuss it here.

In revision 1412, there were several minor issues in the English lang pack.

The less-minor one: ellipsis are used throughout the lang pack, while three dots are used in some places. 1428 addressed that, I don't know if it caught all of them (the svn diff did). On one occurrence, the ellipsis didn't have a space before it too, that was corrected.

The second one: apostrophes. The English lang pack use the computer, straight single quote ' instead of apostrophe ?. Beside the typographic ease of reading of the correct one, it also makes the lang pack easier to read and write: no more \', just ?

The third one: double quotes. The lang pack uses double straight computerized quote ", instead of the English opening ? and closing ? double quotes. It's very minor, but I was correcting the first two, I could throw in this one too for free smile

One I didn't touch was the use of the numerical entity for non-breaking space & #160; instead of a ?real? non-breaking space. While the real space should be slightly shorter in bits, and sometimes easier to read in the lang pack and the html/xml source; the entity is easier when one need to spot a non-breaking space. So it needs to be considered.

Another one I didn't touch was the use of non-breaking space for reading ease, such as before ellipsis (to avoid the ellipsis being sent away as a widow for example), because I thought this should be considered before.

Jeu de rôle en ligne sur table virtuelle ⁂ Shadowrun France ⁂ Chez Blacky

Jérémie's Website

  • From: 127.0.0.1
  • Registered: 2001-11-02
  • Posts: 9,167

Re: rev1412 English lang pack, minor typographics issues

I think my commit regarding the ellipsis caught all of them. There are some code comments that I didn't touch, but all the output should now be correct.

I think for the non-breaking space, we need the numeric entity. If not, I'm convinced language pack authors will just overwrite it with a regular space.

My main issue with apostrophes and quotes is that if we use the "fancy" versions in the language packs, we need to make sure that they're also used in posts. That means translating computerized versions either as the post is inserted into the database or right before display. I'm not sure I like it. There's potential for problems.

"Programming is like sex: one mistake and you have to support it for the rest of your life."

Rickard's Website

  • From: France
  • Registered: 2004-11-06
  • Posts: 695

Re: rev1412 English lang pack, minor typographics issues

Rickard wrote:

My main issue with apostrophes and quotes is that if we use the "fancy" versions in the language packs, we need to make sure that they're also used in posts.

I don't see why... you use ellipsis in the lang pack, yet everyone use three-dots inside posts. Same as non-breaking space.

It's not a big deal, in my opinion.

That means translating computerized versions either as the post is inserted into the database or right before display.

Noooo, it just means installing Textile big_smile

Jeu de rôle en ligne sur table virtuelle ⁂ Shadowrun France ⁂ Chez Blacky

Jérémie's Website

  • From: +0300
  • Registered: 2004-10-05
  • Posts: 46

Re: rev1412 English lang pack, minor typographics issues

I dislike the idea of "fancy" quotes... On Finnish boards for example, no one uses the real ?Finnish quotes?. It would make the board look messy with  "fancy" and "fugly" (for lack of better term tongue) quotes together. Or if you do it the way Rickard said, it would mean more lines of code for such a simple (and useless) thing. (To convert all "stuff" -> ?stuff?)

I say keep it simple. smile

Jarkko's Website

  • From: France
  • Registered: 2004-11-06
  • Posts: 695

Re: rev1412 English lang pack, minor typographics issues

Jarkko wrote:

I dislike the idea of "fancy" quotes... On Finnish boards for example, no one uses the real ?Finnish quotes?. It would make the board look messy with  "fancy" and "fugly" (for lack of better term tongue) quotes together. Or if you do it the way Rickard said, it would mean more lines of code for such a simple (and useless) thing. (To convert all "stuff" -> ?stuff?)

This is strictly a matter of international English one. When you localize your board, you can choose whatever is appropriate for your language, and your forum. For example, ? ? ? æ ? × «» ?? and non-breaking space will be extensively used in the French one, while I'm sure pretty different one will be used in the German, Russian, or Farsi one.

As for the international English default PunBB lang pack, I don't see why it would make the forum messy. Does it make books messy? Or cheap newspaper (which use both true, and false, typographic glyphs)?

Jeu de rôle en ligne sur table virtuelle ⁂ Shadowrun France ⁂ Chez Blacky

Jérémie's Website

  • Registered: 2006-07-31
  • Posts: 254

Re: rev1412 English lang pack, minor typographics issues

Jérémie wrote:
Rickard wrote:

My main issue with apostrophes and quotes is that if we use the "fancy" versions in the language packs, we need to make sure that they're also used in posts.

I don't see why... you use ellipsis in the lang pack, yet everyone use three-dots inside posts. Same as non-breaking space.

It's not a big deal, in my opinion.

A lot of people get it wrong all the time.
... is not the same as an ellipsis … if memory serves. The first is actually - full stop, full stop, full stop (or period period period).

my mind is on a permanent tangent
byUsers forum
  • From: France
  • Registered: 2004-11-06
  • Posts: 695

Re: rev1412 English lang pack, minor typographics issues

Rich Pedley wrote:

A lot of people get it wrong all the time.
... is not the same as an ellipsis ? if memory serves. The first is actually - full stop, full stop, full stop (or period period period).

Yup we know. Ellipsis (?) are in the current English lang pack.

What I was saying is: if one uses ellipsis and not ..., why not use ? instead of ' for example. It's exactly the same thing.

Jeu de rôle en ligne sur table virtuelle ⁂ Shadowrun France ⁂ Chez Blacky

Jérémie's Website

8 Reply by Jarkko (edited by Jarkko 2008-01-31 23:41)

  • From: +0300
  • Registered: 2004-10-05
  • Posts: 46

Re: rev1412 English lang pack, minor typographics issues

Jérémie wrote:

This is strictly a matter of international English one. When you localize your board, you can choose whatever is appropriate for your language, and your forum. For example, ? ? ? æ ? × «» ?? and non-breaking space will be extensively used in the French one, while I'm sure pretty different one will be used in the German, Russian, or Farsi one.

The problem is, it's difficult to implement if you want to do it properly. It requires a function that converts at least " " and ' ' to the quotes of your locale, e.g. ? ? and ? ?. It should make sure you can still write possessive forms properly, e.g. "Rickard?s" instead of converting it to "Rickard?s", and probably lots of other stuff as well. I've seen at least Wordpress and even some word processors do this wrong, for instance.

Either that or, don't convert the quotation marks at all. That means that the posts would have quotation marks inconsistent with the forum software. I think it would be overkill for minimalistic software like PunBB.

Jérémie wrote:

As for the international English default PunBB lang pack, I don't see why it would make the forum messy. Does it make books messy? Or cheap newspaper (which use both true, and false, typographic glyphs)?

I haven't seen any books nor newspapers that use both "this" and ?this? style interchangeably. neutral

Jarkko's Website

  • From: France
  • Registered: 2004-11-06
  • Posts: 695

Re: rev1412 English lang pack, minor typographics issues

Jarkko wrote:

The problem is, it's difficult to implement if you want to do it properly.

No it's not, I did the job, it took me ten minutes while watching TV. The only scope of this was the English PunBB's language pack, nothing more.

It requires a function that converts at least " " and ' ' to the quotes of your locale, e.g. ? ? and ? ?. It should make sure you can still write possessive forms properly, e.g. "Rickard?s" instead of converting it to "Rickard?s", and probably lots of other stuff as well. I've seen at least Wordpress and even some word processors do this wrong, for instance.

Try Textile...

But that's not what I'm talking about here.

But hey, I was only trying to help, I personally very much don't care since I will do my own language files. Take it or don't.

Jeu de rôle en ligne sur table virtuelle ⁂ Shadowrun France ⁂ Chez Blacky

Jérémie's Website

  • Registered: 2006-07-31
  • Posts: 254

Re: rev1412 English lang pack, minor typographics issues

Jérémie wrote:
Rich Pedley wrote:

A lot of people get it wrong all the time.
... is not the same as an ellipsis ? if memory serves. The first is actually - full stop, full stop, full stop (or period period period).

Yup we know. Ellipsis (?) are in the current English lang pack.

What I was saying is: if one uses ellipsis and not ..., why not use ? instead of ' for example. It's exactly the same thing.

apologies, I mis-understood.

Personal preference for me is to keep to " etc. I find that using 'curly quotes' draws my eye to them because they look wrong (even though, as you say, they perhaps should be utilised).

my mind is on a permanent tangent
byUsers forum
  • From: 127.0.0.1
  • Registered: 2001-11-02
  • Posts: 9,167

Re: rev1412 English lang pack, minor typographics issues

Settle down people. There's no need to start arguing over this smile It's a minor issue. We'll discuss this internally and see what we come up with.

"Programming is like sex: one mistake and you have to support it for the rest of your life."

Rickard's Website

  • Registered: 2005-05-11
  • Posts: 275

Re: rev1412 English lang pack, minor typographics issues

Rickard wrote:

I think my commit regarding the ellipsis caught all of them.

This got missed:

'Group membership redirect'    =>    'Group membership saved. Redirecting ...',

  • From: 127.0.0.1
  • Registered: 2001-11-02
  • Posts: 9,167

Re: rev1412 English lang pack, minor typographics issues

Fixed.

"Programming is like sex: one mistake and you have to support it for the rest of your life."

Rickard's Website

  • Registered: 2005-05-11
  • Posts: 275

Re: rev1412 English lang pack, minor typographics issues

profile.php
'Pass updated'                =>    'Password updated. Login with your new password. Redirecting ?',
'Reg complete'                =>    'Registration complete. Logging in and redirecting ?',

  • From: 127.0.0.1
  • Registered: 2001-11-02
  • Posts: 9,167

Re: rev1412 English lang pack, minor typographics issues

Fixed.

"Programming is like sex: one mistake and you have to support it for the rest of your life."

Rickard's Website