Topic: Why PunBB and not something else?

Hi all:

I've been a vBulletin admin on a local community forum for about 5 years and for the past 2 years I've been a consulting developing Drupal & WordPress sites. Drupal's forum module bites, WordPress doesn't have one and I've finally decided that vBulletin not being open-source causes too much many issues that I'm passively looking for a new forum for my next project that needs a forum

I've no specific project that needs a forum but I was just over at the FreshBooks.com forum which looked really nice and I noticed they were using PunBB which is how I ended up here. 

So my question is, why FluxBB?  I (sadly) notice that vBulletin is by far the leading forum but there are other open-source forums with many users (a strong user base is important to me) and PunBB is not listed. One concern is I noticed PunBB forked like Mambo/Joomla to FluxBB.

I am definitely not a forum troll here; this is an honest question. I like the look of PunBB but that's not enough to make me feel comfortable enough with it to use it. So please sell me on PunBB; I'm sure you guys are passionate enough about PunBB to do that, right? :-)

Thanks in advance.

Re: Why PunBB and not something else?

http://punbb.informer.com/about.php wrote:

PunBB is a fast and lightweight PHP-powered discussion board. It is released under the GNU General Public License. Its primary goals are to be faster, smaller and less graphically intensive as compared to other discussion boards. PunBB has fewer features than many other discussion boards, but is generally faster and outputs smaller, semantically correct XHTML-compliant pages.

Do you need simplicity and flexibility?
Are you tired of the forum-monsters, overloaded by the features unnecessary to you?
PunBB is your way! cool

Getting a little bit more serious: PunBB 1.2 is a good choice as the base for the strongly customized site and/or forum. You may use it as a very lightweight and secure framework.
PunBB 1.3 is moreover aimed to make customization easier with the help of the extension system: you may install the extension with one click, no need to touch the code (keeping it simple and lightweight).

I hope I've answered your question :-)

Carpe diem

3

Re: Why PunBB and not something else?

Hi Mike,

If we had a dollar for every thread that required us to defend Pun, the community would own Pun now wink

The reason I use Pun, is the same reason I've steered clear of Drupal/Wordpress/Mambo and use Textpattern. I'm into small code bases, the less lines of code, the easier it is to install and keep secure. The Pun 1.2 code base is fast, bug free and secure. I trust it on my server, where I would have qualms with other popular forum software. Popularity doesn't necessarily equate to better, just compare Windows to Linux or Mac OS X.

Pun, from the start, was created to be a forum. Unlike incarnations like the Drupal forum module or Mambots disguised as a forum, like Simpleboard. I truly believe that there are best of breed apps, mainly because there are best of breed developers. Those that have worked on Pun are forum developers, they got their heads into creating a discussion based app, it wasn't an afterthought like bbPress.

Like the tag line says, you have to experience Pun for yourself.

Re: Why PunBB and not something else?

hcgtv wrote:

If we had a dollar for every thread that required us to defend Pun, the community would own Pun now wink

Sorry, comes with the territory? smile

hcgtv wrote:

The reason I use Pun, is the same reason I've steered clear of Drupal/Wordpress/Mambo and use Textpattern.

Not the most glowing recommendation for someone who works with Drupal & WordPress over TextPattern. smile  A large installed user base is very important to me.  But I appreciate your sentiment.

hcgtv wrote:

Popularity doesn't necessarily equate to better, just compare Windows to Linux or Mac OS X.

For the record, I use Windows and not Linux or Mac precisely because of its popularity; that makes it better for me. But "better" is in the eye of the beholder and is determined by what the beholder values most.  I value popularity because it means 1.) when I have a problem and google for it I am more likely to find an answer, 2.) when I need to hire someone who knows it I am more likely to find someone who does, and 3.) when I need to acquire an add-on there is a greater likelihood that one will exist.  So if vBulletin were open-source I wouldn't even be asking here, but since it's not and I've decided I need an open-source solution I decide to look around.

I also value aesthetics and that's something I really like about PunBB; it has really nice aesthetics.

BTW, me saying I value popularity should in no way be taken to mean that I am attempting to diminish what you value; I am only stating what I value and making the distinction that what one values has a lot to do with determining the best solution for that person.  I do value what you value here, just not as highly as I value popularity.

hcgtv wrote:

Pun, from the start, was created to be a forum. Unlike incarnations like the Drupal forum module or Mambots disguised as a forum, like Simpleboard. I truly believe that there are best of breed apps, mainly because there are best of breed developers. Those that have worked on Pun are forum developers, they got their heads into creating a discussion based app, it wasn't an afterthought like bbPress.

And there we value the same thing; Drupal's forum module bites, but hard.  I generally prefer a best of breed solution with integration.  That said, are there any integrations to WordPress that you know of?

hcgtv wrote:

Like the tag line says, you have to experience Pun for yourself.

Cop-out!  smile

But seriously, thanks for taking the time to reply.

Re: Why PunBB and not something else?

Another related question: Is there any tool written that can import an v3.0.6 vBulletin site into PunBB (including attachments)?  If so, that might seal the deal, at least for my current vBulletin site.

Re: Why PunBB and not something else?

MikeSchinkel wrote:

are there any integrations to WordPress that you know of?

See Integration forum or you may just search for "wordpress".
We are considering developing official PunBB+WP integration tool for PunBB 1.3 as it is very common request.

MikeSchinkel wrote:

Is there any tool written that can import an v3.0.6 vBulletin site into PunBB (including attachments)?  If so, that might seal the deal, at least for my current vBulletin site.

Try PunBB Migration Tool for PunBB 1.2.

The migration tools for PunBB 1.3 has not been developed yet.
We could do it with your assistance :-)

Carpe diem

7

Re: Why PunBB and not something else?

MikeSchinkel wrote:

1.) when I have a problem and google for it I am more likely to find an answer

The larger and more complex the system, the more questions and problems will arise. That's why I stick with simple systems.

MikeSchinkel wrote:

2.) when I need to hire someone who knows it I am more likely to find someone who does

You should hire someone with broad based experience. Anyone can memorize the backend of Drupal or Wordpress, but throw them MODx and see what he or she can accomplish.

MikeSchinkel wrote:

3.) when I need to acquire an add-on there is a greater likelihood that one will exist.

Addons can be a security nightmare, a lot of the attempts to crack into PHPXref are using known Mambot vulnerabilities. But I hear you and addons, if really needed, can be useful. But more often, addons are thrust upon users that don't really see the need for them.

MikeSchinkel wrote:

I do value what you value here, just not as highly as I value popularity.

Mike, remember one thing, this is Open Source and it plays by different rules than commercial software. Where number of users counts for bottom line revenue for vBulletin, a project like PunBB was created and nurtured out of personal love of programming. Rickard never imagined it would garner the number of followers it did and he never marketed the product, it was the community that pushed it out there.

Re: Why PunBB and not something else?

hcgtv wrote:

The larger and more complex the system, the more questions and problems will arise. That's why I stick with simple systems.

You are painting with a very broad brush.  There are many complex systems that have matured and thus have minimal problems.

My rule?  Anyone who speaks in absolutes is an ideologist and by their very nature, not correct.

hcgtv wrote:

You should hire someone with broad based experience. Anyone can memorize the backend of Drupal or Wordpress, but throw them MODx and see what he or she can accomplish.

Based on your words you've obviously never been responsible for the budget required to hire people. Broad experience is of little value when the person doesn't have strong problem solving skills. That said, people with strong problem solving skills who have experience with a specific system are much more cost effective than people how have strong problem solving skills but no experience.

And why would someone need to use MODx when they are not hired for that?  That's a non sequitur. If someone is needed to deal with MODx, hire for it.

hcgtv wrote:

Addons can be a security nightmare, a lot of the attempts to crack into PHPXref are using known Mambot vulnerabilities. But I hear you and addons, if really needed, can be useful.

Everything can have security nightmares; open-source apps like PunBB especially because people can study the code to learn how to crack it. (I'm not disagreeing with open-source, just making an appropriate comparison.)

"Security" can be used as an argument against anything so I almost never see it as a valid argument when used as a reason not to do something.  George W. Bush has been using it for 8 years and I don't view his warnings as credible either.

hcgtv wrote:

But more often, addons are thrust upon users that don't really see the need for them.

Maybe, but as I'm not one of those users it doesn't apply to me.

MikeSchinkel wrote:

Mike, remember one thing, this is Open Source and it plays by different rules than commercial software. Where number of users counts for bottom line revenue for vBulletin, a project like PunBB was created and nurtured out of personal love of programming. Rickard never imagined it would garner the number of followers it did and he never marketed the product, it was the community that pushed it out there.

Bottom line there are benefits to the size of a user base, i.e. Acquia couldn't exist to support Drupal users if Drupal had no more users than PunBB. The fact that you don't value those benefits does not mean that those benefits do not exist for those who value them.

Worse is the fact you try to discredit those benefits rather than to simply acknowledge that for you those benefits are not important. Whenever I come across someone who feels compelled to strenuously deny those things that other's value I wonder if the person doing the denying is trying harder to convince me or are they really just trying to convince themselves?

Re: Why PunBB and not something else?

Anatoly wrote:

We are considering developing official PunBB+WP integration tool for PunBB 1.3 as it is very common request.

Cooool!  I think a WordPress integration would be a VERY good move.

Anatoly wrote:

The migration tools for PunBB 1.3 has not been developed yet.
We could do it with your assistance :-)

Thanks.

10

Re: Why PunBB and not something else?

MikeSchinkel wrote:
hcgtv wrote:

Mike, remember one thing, this is Open Source and it plays by different rules than commercial software. Where number of users counts for bottom line revenue for vBulletin, a project like PunBB was created and nurtured out of personal love of programming. Rickard never imagined it would garner the number of followers it did and he never marketed the product, it was the community that pushed it out there.

Bottom line there are benefits to the size of a user base, i.e. Acquia couldn't exist to support Drupal users if Drupal had no more users than PunBB. The fact that you don't value those benefits does not mean that those benefits do not exist for those who value them.

Worse is the fact you try to discredit those benefits rather than to simply acknowledge that for you those benefits are not important. Whenever I come across someone who feels compelled to strenuously deny those things that other's value I wonder if the person doing the denying is trying harder to convince me or are they really just trying to convince themselves?

I can't see where my statement discredits anything or anyone.

Mike, the only reason you're looking at Drupal or Wordpress is because they are at the top of the heap now, with millions of dollars of funding. It's the nobody gets fired for using IBM mantra that was pervasive during my IT career.

Honestly, I have the highest regard for Drupal, I used it when it was a small project and I followed it's developer mailing list. Yes, I shot the breeze with Dries back in 2001, so I'm happy to see him get to where he's at.

Would I of liked to see PunBB get to Drupal's heights? Why, yes. Would Rickard or Paul, obviously not. Did that sway me from using their code? Not one bit.

Re: Why PunBB and not something else?

hcgtv wrote:

I can't see where my statement discredits anything or anyone.

Mike, the only reason you're looking at Drupal or Wordpress is because they are at the top of the heap now, with millions of dollars of funding. It's the nobody gets fired for using IBM mantra that was pervasive during my IT career.

Honestly, I have the highest regard for Drupal, I used it when it was a small project and I followed it's developer mailing list. Yes, I shot the breeze with Dries back in 2001, so I'm happy to see him get to where he's at.

Would I of liked to see PunBB get to Drupal's heights? Why, yes. Would Rickard or Paul, obviously not. Did that sway me from using their code? Not one bit.

All that's fair except I don't think the part regarding "millions of dollars of funding" is applicable for WordPress, and only applicable for Drupal very recently.  They both got to where they are on the strength of what they offered their respective communities.

From what I see, I do really like PunBB though I've not actually installed it yet and I haven't seen the extension docs (are they online yet?)  I would personally prefer a stronger user base, but maybe PunBB is the project that will be on the top of the heap in 3-5 years? And if PunBB offers a WordPress integration extension I think that will be a lot more likely than not. 

I could even possibly help with such an integration since I develop WordPress plugins if I had a paying client project that could fund the development. I wish I could just contribute but I already spend all my free time organizing web entrepreneurs locally via http://atlantawebentrepreneurs.org and don't have any other free time. I obviously do "contribute", only I do it in other ways.

12

Re: Why PunBB and not something else?

MikeSchinkel wrote:

All that's fair except I don't think the part regarding "millions of dollars of funding" is applicable for WordPress, and only applicable for Drupal very recently.

Automattic raised $29.5 million in a Series B Round of funding.

MikeSchinkel wrote:

They both got to where they are on the strength of what they offered their respective communities.

Also, it comes down to leadership. Dries Buytaert and Matt Mullenweg took their respective code bases to new heights. What they started, they finished.

Had Dean Allen continued with Textpattern, when he branched off to form Textdrive. We would have a very different landscape in the CMS/Blog world this day.

MikeSchinkel wrote:

I would personally prefer a stronger user base, but maybe PunBB is the project that will be on the top of the heap in 3-5 years?

That's a question that only Anatoly and his fellow programmers can answer. Speaking as a long time community member, I would like to see the project stick around for the long haul. As for top of the heap, that's only going to come about when a forum realizes that they are just one part of the big picture and starts making it easier to integrate itself with a CMS, Blog, Gallery, Wiki or any other application a web developer needs to fuse together.

MikeSchinkel wrote:

I wish I could just contribute but I already spend all my free time organizing web entrepreneurs locally via http://atlantawebentrepreneurs.org and don't have any other free time. I obviously do "contribute", only I do it in other ways.

Ahh, so your only a community organizer wink

Re: Why PunBB and not something else?

hcgtv wrote:

Automattic raised $29.5 million in a Series B Round of funding.

My bad, but that was still several years after WordPress gained the #1 blog software spot.

hcgtv wrote:

Also, it comes down to leadership. Dries Buytaert and Matt Mullenweg took their respective code bases to new heights. What they started, they finished.

I completely agree.

hcgtv wrote:

Had Dean Allen continued with Textpattern, when he branched off to form Textdrive. We would have a very different landscape in the CMS/Blog world this day.

Woulda, coulda, shoulda, eh? wink

I can actually related. I once ran a fast growing startup (#123 on Inc 500 in 1999) and had I made the right moves, I'd be in a very different place today. I have HUGE respect for Dries and Matt, and can also relate to those who don't achieve lasting success as I understand why.  I only hope that I will eventually have both the discipline and that unknowable quality that is required to achieve a similar lasting success of my own.

hcgtv wrote:

That's a question that only Anatoly and his fellow programmers can answer. Speaking as a long time community member, I would like to see the project stick around for the long haul. As for top of the heap, that's only going to come about when a forum realizes that they are just one part of the big picture and starts making it easier to integrate itself with a CMS, Blog, Gallery, Wiki or any other application a web developer needs to fuse together.

And I'll give you a BIG +1 on that count!  There are too many islands in the open-source app world; we need more bridges and ferries!  Ironically open-source infrastructure/components generally work very well together so it's amazing that O/S apps are so monolithic.

That said, I still can't understand why nobody has created an open API for cross-app userbase integration, at least for PHP apps, unless it's just lack of will?   Now for that I would find some free time to contribute.

hcgtv wrote:

Ahh, so your only a community organizer wink

Hehe. Now don't go holding that against me, ya hear? wink

Besides, I think it's going to prove to be in fashion these days. cool

One question, why have you Bert stuck with PunBB and not jumped ship for FluxBB?

14

Re: Why PunBB and not something else?

MikeSchinkel wrote:

One question, why have you Bert stuck with PunBB and not jumped ship for FluxBB?

I was part of the PunBB team, till the sale: PunBB - Glasnost

When FluxBB was announced, I was very enthusiastic, and joined their forums. But I just couldn't shake the fact that they all sold out, and didn't want to go through the same thing again without assurances.

Personally, I follow the PunBB forums because I still run the code. I don't feel part of the Informer community, changing the domain from PunBB.org was the last straw for me.

At present, I think the projects are playing a game of chicken with each other. All momentum has been lost, on both sides.

Re: Why PunBB and not something else?

hcgtv wrote:

When FluxBB was announced, I was very enthusiastic, and joined their forums. But I just couldn't shake the fact that they all sold out, and didn't want to go through the same thing again without assurances.

I don't exactly follow.  Who all sold out?  The people on the FluxBB?  Go through what? Having FluxBB be bought?  What kind of assurances do you want? 

hcgtv wrote:

Personally, I follow the PunBB forums because I still run the code. I don't feel part of the Informer community, changing the domain from PunBB.org was the last straw for me.

Forgive me for saying, but my first impression is that you are strangely non-pragmatic.  In other words kinda "bite your nose to spit your face" non-pragmatic.  But please don't shoot me for saying it, I'm just giving you my impression.

That said, at least you support Obama. :-)

hcgtv wrote:

At present, I think the projects are playing a game of chicken with each other. All momentum has been lost, on both sides.

That's a shame because it doesn't help anyone.  Seems like SoftDeluxe bungled the acquisition, or is it the sole fact that it was acquired that you object to?  Could SoftDeluxe have done things differently to keep the community together?  It sounds like a nasty divorce where the only ones that make out are the lawyers w/the two ex-spouses being financially devastated. Or the mutual assured destruction of two nations nuking each other.  Why can't people get just along?

Re: Why PunBB and not something else?

hcgtv wrote:

Personally, I follow the PunBB forums because I still run the code. I don't feel part of the Informer community, changing the domain from PunBB.org was the last straw for me.

Also, why have you not just switched to Phorum as you planned to?  Or have you but still wasting time here too?

I looked at Phorum an I don't like the look & feel of it as much as I like PunBB & FluxBB's look & feel.

Re: Why PunBB and not something else?

MikeSchinkel, please, visit Project history wiki page for details so that we do not have to repeat it all here.

hcgtv wrote:

I don't feel part of the Informer community

You are the community, and it is in your hands too.

hcgtv wrote:

At present, I think the projects are playing a game of chicken with each other. All momentum has been lost, on both sides.

Mostly agree. Though there are reasons: Rickard's leave and the devs fork (followed by natural community split) were surprise for us (our mistake is somewhere about this moment). We did like what former PunBB devs (Smartys and Paul first of all) did for PunBB and had no our own dev team then.
We had to follow FluxBB, because it is not us who started 1.3 branch and we reasonably supposed that Smartys is the best person who may finish it.
Now Smartys has left FluxBB, Paul is delaying his markup for months. We stopped following, finished the markup (it is not perfect, but good enough) and released 1.3 RC2.
Help us to test and improve it to have final 1.3 release. We can forget about FluxBB then (at last) and start new development branch with our own vision, keeping the original PunBB priorities on the security, lightness, the speed and quality.

Carpe diem

Re: Why PunBB and not something else?

Anatoly wrote:

MikeSchinkel, please, visit Project history wiki page for details so that we do not have to repeat it all here.

Thanks.

From an outsider's perspective, here are my thoughts:

  • I really like the clean look of PunBB.

  • I find it a shame that the community fragmented into PunBB & FluxBB as fragmented communities rarely help anyone.

  • I think you Informer Technologies might generate a lot of good will if you go back to the http://punbb.org domain and include a "Sponsored by Informer Technologies" link on the right of the top blue banner. That will give you probably more exposure and will address one of the sore points of the community.

  • Why not create an advisory board of community members that will be able to make recommendations for direction on PunBB and have Informer Technologies follow their recommendations whenever possible.

From what I see I really like this forum, but I would not want to adopt it if there is a chance it may become an orphan. A strong community is essential as is a strong community leader.  Forgive me for saying, but I think you should acheiving that as a top priority.

Also,  one of the best things that could happen would be for you to develop an integration with WordPress; what's the chance of that?

Also, where is your documenation for writing extensions?  I'm not able to find any as this page is blank: http://punbb.informer.com/wiki/punbb13/ … evelopment

Re: Why PunBB and not something else?

MikeSchinkel wrote:

I really like the clean look of PunBB.

Thanks to Paul Sullivan.

MikeSchinkel wrote:

I find it a shame that the community fragmented into PunBB & FluxBB as fragmented communities rarely help anyone. Why not create an advisory board of community members that will be able to make recommendations for direction on PunBB and have Informer Technologies follow their recommendations whenever possible.

These Forums are the board where each user is adviser.
Following users' recommendations is our priority.
You are free to start any discussion here and if the community supports you, we will try to do this.

MikeSchinkel wrote:

From what I see I really like this forum, but I would not want to adopt it if there is a chance it may become an orphan. A strong community is essential as is a strong community leader.  Forgive me for saying, but I think you should achieving that as a top priority.

Completely agree. This is a top priority.
Do you have any concrete proposals (other than punbb.org)?

MikeSchinkel wrote:

Also,  one of the best things that could happen would be for you to develop an integration with WordPress; what's the chance of that?

As I said above, we have this in plan.
This work must start just after PunBB 1.3 final is released.
My estimation is that you'll get the integration in 4-6 weeks.

MikeSchinkel wrote:

Also, where is your documenation for writing extensions? I'm not able to find any as this page is blank: http://punbb.informer.com/wiki/punbb13/ … evelopment

Yes, yes. Documentation is still under development.
Devs are concentrated on the coding now to get 1.3 final as soon as possible.
Though we try to add more info to the wiki every day answering users' questions in Forums.
If one may help us to improve PunBB wiki, he is free to to this.

Carpe diem

Re: Why PunBB and not something else?

Anatoly wrote:
MikeSchinkel wrote:

From what I see I really like this forum, but I would not want to adopt it if there is a chance it may become an orphan. A strong community is essential as is a strong community leader.  Forgive me for saying, but I think you should achieving that as a top priority.

Completely agree. This is a top priority.
Do you have any concrete proposals (other than punbb.org)?

Good question.  I'd wonder what it would take to get the FluxBB guys to join their efforts back in with PunBB? I don't know what went on "behind closed doors" (and am not asking that it be made public) so I don't know if there is any chance at all, but if there is it might be worth pursuing. Maybe ask all the community members what it would take to make it one big happy family again?  Clearly they would know better than I, a newcomer?

And assuming that is not fruitful then I would think 1.) documenting the extensions, 2.) the WordPress integration, and then 3.) evangelism of PunBB to people with strong WordPress sites (there are many.)  With that you'd be likely to start attracting new developers with non of the prior hurt feelings of the old community.

JMTCW anyway.

Re: Why PunBB and not something else?

MikeSchinkel wrote:

And assuming that is not fruitful then I would think 1.) documenting the extensions, 2.) the WordPress integration, and then 3.) evangelism of PunBB to people with strong WordPress sites (there are many.)  With that you'd be likely to start attracting new developers with non of the prior hurt feelings of the old community.

1. Agree. But we can do this only in a week or so (we've got a Holidays here in Russian, and after them devs will fix the 1.3 RC2 bugs). This is where the community contribution is really needed.
2. Current estimation is 4 - 6 weeks.
3. Good idea. Thanks.

Carpe diem

Re: Why PunBB and not something else?

Anatoly wrote:
MikeSchinkel wrote:

And assuming that is not fruitful then I would think 1.) documenting the extensions, 2.) the WordPress integration, and then 3.) evangelism of PunBB to people with strong WordPress sites (there are many.)  With that you'd be likely to start attracting new developers with non of the prior hurt feelings of the old community.

1. Agree. But we can do this only in a week or so (we've got a Holidays here in Russian, and after them devs will fix the 1.3 RC2 bugs). This is where the community contribution is really needed.
2. Current estimation is 4 - 6 weeks.
3. Good idea. Thanks.

One week is no time at all.  All us in the USA are all paying attention to Obama-vs-McCain anyway. cool
Even 4-6 weeks is really no time. That's Thanksgiving in USA and close to Xmas.  If Jan 1 sees #1 & #2 then all is very good for 2009!

Good luck!

Re: Why PunBB and not something else?

MikeSchinkel wrote:

One week is no time at all.  All us in the USA are all paying attention to Obama-vs-McCain anyway. cool
Even 4-6 weeks is really no time. That's Thanksgiving in USA and close to Xmas.  If Jan 1 sees #1 & #2 then all is very good for 2009!

Ha-ha.
I stake on Obama: it is just Democrats' turn smile

And I'm hoping for PunBB 2.0 beta before 2009 wink

Carpe diem

24

Re: Why PunBB and not something else?

MikeSchinkel wrote:

Also, why have you not just switched to Phorum as you planned to?

I'm learning it at this point, using it as my personal forum and at a new project we started.

I await the finished conversion script, so I can convert my last 2 PunBB forums.

All Phorum needs is a slick template, just haven't had the time to make one.

25

Re: Why PunBB and not something else?

Anatoly wrote:
hcgtv wrote:

I don't feel part of the Informer community

You are the community, and it is in your hands too.

If it was in my hands, I would of voted against the punbb.informer.com domain name change wink

Remember one thing Anatoly, this is Open Source.

I wish you and your programmers the best, and I hope that Pun lives on.