1 Topic by ext

  • ext
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  • Registered: 2003-11-27
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Topic: no tables?

Just to let you all know...

I'm currently working on integrating my new PunBB into my site's layout, and I must say I'm not fond of working with tables. All my website is XHTML valid, made with div's and span's and completely stylesheet-based. I'm planning to rewrite all the tables into div's and span to make the forums more readable and easier to skin, too. I'll send you the code when I'm done if you're interested in that...

Any remarks on what should be done to enhance the current layout?

  • From: 127.0.0.1
  • Registered: 2001-11-02
  • Posts: 9,167

Re: no tables?

Don't bother. PunBB 1.2 has a completely new set of markup and CSS. Paul has been working on it. There's a topic on it in "PunBB Discussions".

Edit: Just to clarify. PunBB 1.2 will use tables, but only when a table is the semantically correct construct to use. I.e. the index page and the forum index will use a table. Tables won't be used for layout though.

"Programming is like sex: one mistake and you have to support it for the rest of your life."

Rickard's Website

3 Reply by ext

  • ext
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Re: no tables?

Yep, just noticed. I'll do it for me on 1.1.4 anyway...

4 Reply by Paul

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Re: no tables?

I would be very interested in seeing your xhtml/css if possible.

5 Reply by ext

  • ext
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Re: no tables?

No problem Paul. I'll try to keep things as simple as possible. I'll have to make it transitional since there are a few "target="_blank" ; usually I'm playing with XHTML1.0 strict...

6 Reply by Paul

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Re: no tables?

ext wrote:

No problem Paul. I'll try to keep things as simple as possible. I'll have to make it transitional since there are a few "target="_blank" ; usually I'm playing with XHTML1.0 strict...

Transitional is what I have for v1.2 for the same reason plus strict throws up some addional wobblies in IE6. I did actully do a prototype for index.php without any tables at all but then ended up styling the forum list to look like a table as that was the layout which made most sense. Conclusion; if it works best looking like a table, use a table.

If you want to take a look at a totally tableless bbs look here
http://forums.proxywiregen.com/

7 Reply by ext

  • ext
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Re: no tables?

Nice piece of code wink

I'd like to make the code of my Punbb look like that... I really prefer making "fake tables" with div's than playing with real tables, for one main reason : if you use divs, code is much more easy to read, and easier to "skin" from CSS imho...

Back to work, there's still a long way to make it...
Note for myself : don't forget to test under IE...

8 Reply by rADo

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Re: no tables?

ext wrote:

Nice piece of code wink

I'd like to make the code of my Punbb look like that... I really prefer making "fake tables" with div's than playing with real tables, for one main reason : if you use divs, code is much more easy to read, and easier to "skin" from CSS imho...

Back to work, there's still a long way to make it...
Note for myself : don't forget to test under IE...


This is what I did: http://forum.blogcms.com - XHTML 1.0 STRICT valid. Looking at http://forums.proxywiregen.com/ makes me sick, in fact, tabular data SHOULD be represented in tablesm using <th>, <td>, <tbody>, <thead> tags, not substituted for 5-6 <divs>! That forum has WAY MORE markup than my custom PunBB BLOG:CMS Edition mod.. wink

--= BLOG:CMS developer =--
web|zine :: web|contact (PGP) :: Opera|The Best Internet Experience

9 Reply by Rod

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Re: no tables?

It would be great a tableless design, indeed ... but not really simple : the php code and html code are together ...

http://www.sortons.net
http://www.fantasya.net

Rod's Website

10 Reply by rADo

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Re: no tables?

no, what do you think is better and more accesible?

This?

<table>
<tr><th>A</th><th>B</th></tr>
<tr><td>content 1</td><td>content 2</td></tr>
</table>

Or this?

<div class='table'>
<div class='header'>
<div class='item'>A</div>
<div class='item'>B</div>
</div>
<div class='rows'>
<div class='item'>content 1</div>
<div class='item'>content 2</div>
</div>
</div>

Well, of cource the first thing is preferred wink Tables are bad for layout, but they are GREAT, designed for, to display, ehm, .. tables. smile

--= BLOG:CMS developer =--
web|zine :: web|contact (PGP) :: Opera|The Best Internet Experience

11 Reply by Elrond

  • Registered: 2004-06-26
  • Posts: 47

Re: no tables?

rADo wrote:

no, what do you think is better and more accesible?
.....
Well, of cource the first thing is preferred ;) Tables are bad for layout, but they are GREAT, designed for, to display, ehm, .. tables. :)

"more accesible" is the interesting point here.
Did you ever think of people with bad eyes?
They use browsers like w3m or lynx, which don't support css at all.

I tried the tableless thing in w3m, it doesn't really look useful.

While punbb 1.1.5 looks still quite nice in w3m.

My impression is, both is wrong:
The old way of even putting the colors in the html markup
The new way of putting unsorted text in thousand DIVs and letting CSS put the text at the right place ;)

Anyway, just my useless comments.

Elrond's Website

12 Reply by Paul

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Re: no tables?

You make a valid point. The trouble with accessabilty is accessible to whom. While you might be correct in respect of people with bad eyes using lynx you would be wrong in respect of people with no eyes using a screen reader for whom complex tables can be a nightmare. We would all be wrong, including the W3C, in respect of people with learning difficulties for whom fancy flash visual trickery would be stimulating and beneficial but are against all the accessability guidelines.

13 Reply by Rod

  • Rod
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Re: no tables?

Stats on my site ...

Total 1 755 (100 %) (- 10,6 %)
MsIE 6.x 1 404 (80 %) (- 9,5 %)
MsIE 5.x 222 (12,6 %) (- 14,0 %)
Mozilla 85 (4,8 %) (+ 6,3 %)
Netscape 7.x 13 (0,7 %) (- 40,9 %)
Safari 12 (0,7 %) (- 33,3 %)
Netscape 4.x 9 (0,5 %) (+ 50 %)
Netscape 3.x 7 (0,4 %) (- 22,2 %)
Opera 2 (0,1 %) (- 80 %)
MsIE 4.x 1 (0,1 %) (- 75 %)

where is lynx ? or whynot mozaic ??!!

It's a time where the coders HAVE TO FORCE the technology ... whynot develop all for 28k modems ??? no, past is past !!!

xhtml is the future of the web, and great browsers like FIREFOX show us the powerful of the css and xhtml about the layout techniques (see the excellent http://www.csszengarden)

I have found a tabular site WITHOUT TD ... it's impressive : check it at
http://www.tbrown.org/ideas/tabularlist/

http://www.sortons.net
http://www.fantasya.net

Rod's Website

14 Reply by hcgtv

  • hcgtv
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Re: no tables?

Rod wrote:

I have found a tabular site WITHOUT TD ... it's impressive : check it at
http://www.tbrown.org/ideas/tabularlist/

Wow, I was looking for something like that for my side menus. I use tables now but wanted it to be all via css.

Thanks for the link.

PHPCrossRef . TXP Make . TXP Themes . TXP Tags . TXP Planet . We Love TXP

hcgtv's Website

15 Reply by Paul

  • Paul
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Re: no tables?

Using lists to recreate a table layout populated with tabular data. I give up. What happened to semantically correct markup.

Could somebody try an experiment. Make those fake tables fluid width rather than fixed and see what happens.

  • From: 127.0.0.1
  • Registered: 2001-11-02
  • Posts: 9,167

Re: no tables?

Yeah, that was sick.

"Programming is like sex: one mistake and you have to support it for the rest of your life."

Rickard's Website

17 Reply by hcgtv

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Re: no tables?

Rickard wrote:

Yeah, that was sick.

Burst my bubble :)

PHPCrossRef . TXP Make . TXP Themes . TXP Tags . TXP Planet . We Love TXP

hcgtv's Website