26 Reply by glenr

  • From: Reading, UK
  • Registered: 2004-08-09
  • Posts: 30

Re: Time zone

Frank H wrote:

I never think PunBB was meant to be feature rich ... it's meant to be small and fast, the more features that's added, the slower the forum will be...

Here's some reading smile

With all respect to yourself but features don't slow down boards bad coding does. Rickard obviously has a talent for super clean coding so if he put it to use on other features and automated tasks then like I said before PunBB will appeal to both types of forum administrators.

During the install of PubBB it would be amazing if users has the choice to install other features. Those people like yourself who believe features slow down boards they can opt out of installing the other features. Everyone is happy.

BTW People are really defensive in here.

glenr's Website

  • From: 127.0.0.1
  • Registered: 2001-11-02
  • Posts: 9,167

Re: Time zone

glenr wrote:

I am surprised that you feel the major differentiator between PunBB and boards such as phpBB is automation. I believe that PunBB's strength lies in the low implementation time and simplicity of design which in-turn increases efficiency.

What I'm trying to say is that I believe PunBB's strength lies in its simplicity, speed and the fact that its easy on the web server and consumes very little bandwidth. Low implementation time has never really been a goal of mine with PunBB. I believe most forum software have a very low implementation time (just unpack and run the installer). My goal with PunBB has been to make something different from the other hundred or so bulletin boards out there. By different I mean something that doesn't aim to implement every single feature that is requested by the users. Anyone can cram in thousands of features if speed or code size isn't an issue. I started working on PunBB because everywhere I looked, forum software had loads of features I hade absolutely no use for.

A feature such as automatic timezone detection in the admin interface is a typical example of something you would find in e.g. vBulletin. I don't want to go down that path.

glenr wrote:

If more automation is added to PunBB then I feel your product would appeal to both types of forum administrators. I'm positive that the main reason forum administrator choose boards such as phpBB is due the features and automation.

People looking for a feature rich and highly automated bulletin board should avoid PunBB.

glenr wrote:

Step-up and fill the demand before someone else does.

So be it. I'm not trying to make money from this. I'd rather do it the way I want it than "sell out" and turn PunBB into the very thing it was created in contrast to.

"Programming is like sex: one mistake and you have to support it for the rest of your life."

Rickard's Website

28 Reply by glenr

  • From: Reading, UK
  • Registered: 2004-08-09
  • Posts: 30

Re: Time zone

Quite a small mined way of thinking about it.

If you gave users the option on install to excluded such features then PunBB will be the original board that you intended it to be.

However if you don't have the desire nor the inclination to invest the time in creating such a board then I fully understand you point of view.

I love PunBB, I've been in the industry for 6 years now and PunBB is by far the best. If you (to quote Steve Job) "think different" you would see many phpBB users switching if they had the choice of installing what feature they wanted.

glenr's Website

  • From: 127.0.0.1
  • Registered: 2001-11-02
  • Posts: 9,167

Re: Time zone

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by choosing what features to include during install. Should the install script dynamically create the code? More features means more code and more code means longer interpretation time for PHP. It doesn't really matter if a feature is disabled. PHP still has to parse the code for it every single time the script is run.

"Programming is like sex: one mistake and you have to support it for the rest of your life."

Rickard's Website

30 Reply by glenr

  • From: Reading, UK
  • Registered: 2004-08-09
  • Posts: 30

Re: Time zone

Rickard wrote:

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by choosing what features to include during install.

This would be an option on installation of the board

Rickard wrote:

More features means more code and more code means longer interpretation time for PHP.

Not if the code didn't exist on the page.

Rickard wrote:

It doesn't really matter if a feature is disabled. PHP still has to parse the code for it every single time the script is run.

It would if the code existed on the page. I'm suggesting you have a install script that completely customizes the outputted board's code. As such the code for a feature is completely removed and if at a later date the forum administrator decides he wants a poll feature for example he would have to run the install script again to output the necessary code.

Think back to flow diagrams, Input / Output.

glenr's Website

  • Frank H
  • Former PunBB Developer
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2003-03-16
  • Posts: 1,423

Re: Time zone

glenr wrote:

With all respect to yourself but features don't slow down boards bad coding does.

Eh?
Every line of code takes time to interpret, and will slow down the final result. More fetures = more code = slower board.
The feature rich boards is slower, due to the number of commands they need to perform, not due to they're coded badly.

32 Reply by glenr

  • From: Reading, UK
  • Registered: 2004-08-09
  • Posts: 30

Re: Time zone

Frank H wrote:

More fetures = more code = slower board.

Yes this is obviously correct.

We are talking nanoseconds here - aren't we. I was referring (although I may not have been crystal clear) to significant delays i.e. whole seconds. If coded efficiently, like PunBB is, then extra features wouldn't delay the loading or processing time in whole seconds but nanoseconds.

Also, I'm suggesting giving the administrator the option to install extra features, not implement them as default. Then you'd be happy as on install you can leave all the feature boxes unchecked. As, by the sounds, that is what you want - no features.

glenr's Website

  • Frank H
  • Former PunBB Developer
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2003-03-16
  • Posts: 1,423

Re: Time zone

glenr wrote:

We are talking nanoseconds here - aren't we. I was referring (although I may not have been crystal clear) to significant delays i.e. whole seconds. If coded efficiently, like PunBB is, then extra features wouldn't delay the loading or processing time in whole seconds but nanoseconds.

No, we're not talking about nanoseconds here, I ran a loop on date("T") ... that command takes 22503 nanoseconds on my computer ... (tested over 100000 iterations)

I don't see the point in using automatic values. Or a bunch of features. If I would like those, I would use something other than PunBB(and I have)...PunBB is extremely lightweight, and that's something that appeals to me.

If you like to have those, then mod PunBB, it's very easy if you know some php to do modifications. People with slim to none experience with php has made mods... and if Rickard thinks the mods are useful or neccessary I'm sure they will arrive to the base PunBB...

Perhaps Janssons PunBB++ would appeal to you?

34 Reply by glenr

  • From: Reading, UK
  • Registered: 2004-08-09
  • Posts: 30

Re: Time zone

Man, you guys really have problems in grasping a concept !

Your missing the point COMPLETELY.  I will put it like this:

Would forum administrators find it useful to add additional features without the need for a crude hack?

I design 10's of websites every months and it would be nice to stick to the same board every-time (if needed by the customer) and add or remove features according to the boards usage.

My point isn't arguable as it's fact. It would be easier to add a feature in the install stage then it would after the install stage.

It's down to Rickard if he has the time to implement such a solution not if users would benefit from it as they would.

As it happens I like PunBB how it is but as I design so many sites I have customers who want rich features and I'd prefer to install PunBB but I don't have the time to install mods.

glenr's Website

  • From: 127.0.0.1
  • Registered: 2001-11-02
  • Posts: 9,167

Re: Time zone

glenr wrote:

It would if the code existed on the page. I'm suggesting you have a install script that completely customizes the outputted board's code. As such the code for a feature is completely removed and if at a later date the forum administrator decides he wants a poll feature for example he would have to run the install script again to output the necessary code.

Think back to flow diagrams, Input / Output.

Easier said than done. Coding that would take a huge amount of time for me. Time that could instead be spent on implementing the features that are already on the todo list or by altering/perfecting what is already implemented.

What you're talking about is similar to EasyMod for phpBB. It's a script that automatically installs and uninstalls mods. It would be great if someone were to make something similar for PunBB. However, I very much doubt it will end up in the PunBB source itself.

"Programming is like sex: one mistake and you have to support it for the rest of your life."

Rickard's Website

  • From: 127.0.0.1
  • Registered: 2001-11-02
  • Posts: 9,167

Re: Time zone

glenr wrote:

Would forum administrators find it useful to add additional features without the need for a crude hack?

Well, of course, but who the hell is going to write all that code? I'm having problems finding time to work on PunBB as it is. You're talking about it as if it's something one could just whip together in a few weeks. Not only does your "solutions" involve actually implementing all the features (what features btw?), but on top of that, writing some kind of system for dynamically generating the code for it. It's not just a matter of adding a few lines in one of the files. E.g. dynamically adding a feature for file attachments involves changes in lots of different scripts.

Also, far from all mods for PunBB are "crude hacks". Some of them are actually very well written and extremely easy to install and uninstall.

"Programming is like sex: one mistake and you have to support it for the rest of your life."

Rickard's Website

37 Reply by glenr

  • From: Reading, UK
  • Registered: 2004-08-09
  • Posts: 30

Re: Time zone

Finally we are at the heart of the discussion; you having the time to implement the solution.

If you ever have the time then I'd suggest calling upon all the mod creators to help implement all the features.

Features:

* Poll
* Attachments
* Private messaging
* RSS Support
* Further automation

You get the idea.

Keep up the good work Rickard !

glenr's Website

  • From: Gothenburg, Sweden
  • Registered: 2002-07-03
  • Posts: 946

Re: Time zone

I don't see why they _must_ be included in the download package? I've already made some mods (poll, PMS...), and I don't even use them myself  on all forums.

As mentioned, is it so hard for users to install them, they can use PunBB++ instead.

39 Reply by glenr

  • From: Reading, UK
  • Registered: 2004-08-09
  • Posts: 30

Re: Time zone

It's having the option to install a particular feature on and exclude the others on setup.

glenr's Website

  • From: 127.0.0.1
  • Registered: 2001-11-02
  • Posts: 9,167

Re: Time zone

glenr wrote:

Finally we are at the heart of the discussion; you having the time to implement the solution.

It's not only the time that bothers me. It's the fact that going through with such a large undertaking will steer PunBB away from its goal of being the lighter and "neater" alternative to most other boards.

glenr wrote:

If you ever have the time then I'd suggest calling upon all the mod creators to help implement all the features.

Features:

* Poll
* Attachments
* Private messaging
* RSS Support
* Further automation

You get the idea.

PunBB already has some RSS support (via extern.php). The rest of those features, except perhaps "further automation", are available through mods. Personally, I think a tool that makes it easy to add and remove those mods would solve the problem. It prevents contamination of the base code and I can focus on what I'm already working on for PunBB 1.2.

BTW. Polls will probably be added to PunBB 1.2. It's a rather simple addition and I miss it from time to time. I can't say the same about PM and attachments though.

glenr wrote:

Keep up the good work Rickard !

I'll try :)

"Programming is like sex: one mistake and you have to support it for the rest of your life."

Rickard's Website