Re: "Minimalism"? Yeah, right.

point taken... i still don't agree. what about security? don't you think that you can afford the forum/site admin one more fight against hackers/spammers? if all they have is a name and post then it might not be of much use. of course there are the smart ones who know how to check their logs, but what about the novice? atleast an email addy is one more tool for their fight.

still some valid points at 3:21am i guess. tongue

~James
FluxBB - Less is more

Re: "Minimalism"? Yeah, right.

errm, if email verification is off punbb registration is instant, and if you want guests to be able to post, allow guests to post... whats the problem with that setup, its easy to register but you don't have to, everyone is happy?

if you wanted to be clever, what about on the guest post screen have 2 extra boxes for passwords below submit and have a submit and register buttom?

Re: "Minimalism"? Yeah, right.

Dr.Jeckyl wrote:

atleast an email addy is one more tool for their fight.

you explained yourself how easy it is to get a free spam address at Yahoo or MSN - thus the email address is no tool for the fight ... trolls are never stupid enough to use their real email addresses.

the only sure information you have on forum users, whether they post anonymously or have to register, is their IP addresses - although most forum admins probably won't know what to do with those. everything else can be (and is) easily faked.

in my opinion it does more harm than good, hassling 1000 users for information which for the most part will be useless to you anyway, in the hopes that you'll be able to catch the one troll in the flock of a thousand - which never happens anyway, unless your troll is dumb enough to register with his real name or email address.

29

Re: "Minimalism"? Yeah, right.

Heh. Think about this...
You want to post as "Guest" without entering a username because you find it stupid. Fine.
Everyone thinks like you. Fine again.
Then, there will be discussions between "Guest", "Guest", "Guest","Guest" and "Guest"... Who's who?
Usernames are not there to complicate things, just to know who's talking...

30

Re: "Minimalism"? Yeah, right.

mindplay wrote:
Dr.Jeckyl wrote:

atleast an email addy is one more tool for their fight.

you explained yourself how easy it is to get a free spam address at Yahoo or MSN - thus the email address is no tool for the fight ... trolls are never stupid enough to use their real email addresses.

While true, there is one thing you're forgetting: Automated spam bots. Requiring an e-mail adress (as long as a user have to verify it) will stop most of those.

Re: "Minimalism"? Yeah, right.

ext wrote:

You want to post as "Guest" without entering a username because you find it stupid.

I agree. I think that's what Shii wanted, that's not what I want - we don't even allow guest posts on our sites ... but I would like to make the registration process as "instant" as possible.

Re: "Minimalism"? Yeah, right.

CodeXP wrote:

While true, there is one thing you're forgetting: Automated spam bots. Requiring an e-mail adress (as long as a user have to verify it) will stop most of those.

I'm sure there are other solutions to this minor issue. Any bit of client-side JavaScript should already confuse 90% of them sufficiently, for example.

Or if you're really paranoid, use the "repeat this code" system, where you display a warped GIF version of some text that the user has to repeat. (btw, I personally think this is a rather annoying system, and I'm sure the "human check" could be done in much simpler and more efficient ways)

Re: "Minimalism"? Yeah, right.

This has got to be the most confusing, going nowhere thread I've seen lately. Like a Seinfeld episode, a lot of talk about nothing. Ones who complain about time it takes to fill in one extra field, will spend more time arguing about it than it would take to simply do the mod. Maybe I'm just a little thick lately.

I like everything the way it is. Simply filling in a username / password has troll / spam bot written all over it to me. If you disable verification, it is simply username / password / email address to register. Don't see the problem. And I'm sure most people has form autofill on, so two letters and all the fields are filled in anyway (after the first time the field name occurs).

I also do not allow guest to post, for same reasons mentioned above. Also require verification in that for every person who passes on a quick bit of knowledge post because they don't like to register, I can keep 10 dumbass kids from posting stupid things. I feel I'm to the good in that tradeoff.

Every Day Above Ground Is A Good One!!

Re: "Minimalism"? Yeah, right.

I don't see what's pointless about weighing all the pros and cons - if you think it's pointless, you didn't have to participate, but you did anyway, so it was at least important enough for you to to bother writing a reply wink

What sort of forum do you run, where you expect 10 dumbass kids for every user? ... on our forums, we have about 600 users and 15000 posts, it's been running for about 2 years - we've never been hit by trolls or spam bots yet, I really only think that happens to very large forums? I doubt if anyone would bother hitting a forum as specialized as ours with spam...

I look at the statistics, and see the same 4-5 users answering most of the questions. I would like for every passer-by to be able to contribute their knowledge, with a minimum amount of hassle - not only are many of the more skilled and experienced users too busy to bother with a registration, they're also smart enough to know that entering your real email address on a forum potentially means stepping into a spamtrap; if not by forum admins collecting your email addresses, then by email harvesters picking it up.

But every forum has it's own needs - we're merely trying to figure out what ours are smile

35 (edited by shii 2005-06-10 00:14)

Re: "Minimalism"? Yeah, right.

I noticed punbb showing up in my referrer logs, have two new suggestions for this now.

First, to solve the registration problem right now we can implement a registration hack that uses TypeKey to log in. You wouldn't need to fill out registration forms anymore-- just one TypeKey login and you could post anywhere. This would also make PunBB more popular because no other forum software has done this yet.

Now, about anonymity. I've been down and around the block on anonymous forums, and I agree with all your complaints-- the more anonymous, the more temptation there is to spam and troll. But pseudonymity doesn't solve this at all! If you wanted to really limit anti-social attitude, you could develop a new global login system that requires a real name and address to register. But of course, this is basically infeasible on the Internet today. So, for PunBB, I'd like to see either TypeKey or registration-free.

36 (edited by middleground 2005-06-10 14:46)

Re: "Minimalism"? Yeah, right.

mindplay wrote:

I don't see what's pointless about weighing all the pros and cons - if you think it's pointless, you didn't have to participate, but you did anyway, so it was at least important enough for you to to bother writing a reply wink

As a user, however small, of PunBB I tend to notice threads that start off attacking the feature set of a fine package. I felt this is the way this thread started. It would have been very simple to make a feature request for login option to disable the email requirement (which I think would make you happy) when posting as a guest. And perhaps a simple explanation why you would like this feature. Perhaps just my way of looking at things.

mindplay wrote:

What sort of forum do you run, where you expect 10 dumbass kids for every user? ... on our forums, we have about 600 users and 15000 posts, it's been running for about 2 years - we've never been hit by trolls or spam bots yet, I really only think that happens to very large forums? I doubt if anyone would bother hitting a forum as specialized as ours with spam...

Well, currently not much. But as developer of phpCOIN for initial relases, it was quite busy. Within a year, probably close to  1000 users and 4-5000 posts. I had to clean up ads / stupid remarks / unrelated spamming / etc. probably about a dozen or so times a week. Also I said for every  intelligent guest input, I had to deal with 10 dumbass comments. Not for every user as you quoted. I still think that is realistic.

Also I see plenty of "public discussion" sites where there are worthless posts that degrade the actual topic of discussion. Nothing worse than digging through several pages of a thread to read a dozen worthwhile posts.

mindplay wrote:

I look at the statistics, and see the same 4-5 users answering most of the questions. I would like for every passer-by to be able to contribute their knowledge, with a minimum amount of hassle - not only are many of the more skilled and experienced users too busy to bother with a registration, they're also smart enough to know that entering your real email address on a forum potentially means stepping into a spamtrap; if not by forum admins collecting your email addresses, then by email harvesters picking it up.

Perhaps you're putting to much emphasis on your preferences when passing by. Most forums will let guests posts, and while I consider myself fairly busy, I surely don't mind one extra field to post my thoughts, and as I said autofill generally does it for me. Also- most people tend to have some ego component that they will want credit for their thoughts.

mindplay wrote:

But every forum has it's own needs - we're merely trying to figure out what ours are smile

Sorry, like I said I saw it as a complaint about punbb features, when in reality it is a simple feautre request.

What you're arguing is personal preference of different users. I don't think you'll change any minds, so why push it.

Every Day Above Ground Is A Good One!!

Re: "Minimalism"? Yeah, right.

I agree, this thread started out on a bad vibe.

Registration is already very simple with PunBB, certainly simpler than on most other forums. But forcing people to give up their email address - isn't it pointless? You can just use a spam address - why put users through the hassle of setting up a spam address first, so they can feel secure when they register at your forum? I would rather give my users the option to register with nothing but a username and password. Then they can use the forum for a while, and once they're comfortable there and feel secure, maybe they'll want to enter their email address, so they can benefit from features like subscriptions and password recovery.

Anyways, these are just my personal conclusions - I'm not trying to change anyone's mind, I don't know what gave you that impression; I'm just sharing my thoughts.

Re: "Minimalism"? Yeah, right.

btw, Shii, what's a TypeKey?

39

Re: "Minimalism"? Yeah, right.

Regsitration in PunBB is really simple, the email address you give can be anything as long as the rules for an email address are valid and no other similar email address exists in the database.

So I can register using billg@microsoft.com or sjobs@apple.com and Pun don't really care. So I'm not really understanding all the fuss, maybe we need to explain that to the users of our forums.

As for a spam email address, that is a neccessity in today's online world. Very few people know my ISP's email address, at current count I have 10 email locations. Each is suited for a particular purpose, web based subscriptions, forums, giveaways, contests, what have you.

40

Re: "Minimalism"? Yeah, right.

mindplay wrote:

btw, Shii, what's a TypeKey?

http://www.sixapart.com/typekey/

41

Re: "Minimalism"? Yeah, right.

hcgtv wrote:

So I can register using billg@microsoft.com or sjobs@apple.com and Pun don't really care.

Then why have that field at all? It will fool the spammers as much as it fools you.

42

Re: "Minimalism"? Yeah, right.

shii wrote:
hcgtv wrote:

So I can register using billg@microsoft.com or sjobs@apple.com and Pun don't really care.

Then why have that field at all? It will fool the spammers as much as it fools you.

Well, I got into this thread rather late, I was just pointing out how Pun works. On some systems, you get an email and you have to confirm you exist and then you're able to sign in.

So in Pun's case, it's really easy to sign up and start posting. You can give a valid email or not, it's really up to you. It may change in the future, I don't know, but I like it this way at least for my needs.

Re: "Minimalism"? Yeah, right.

actually in Pun's case you get the option in admin for email verification

44 (edited by Snuffkin 2005-06-14 17:50)

Re: "Minimalism"? Yeah, right.

Email addresses are worthless for much verification nowadays. I use SpamBob.net for most e-mail addresses I give out now, but there's nothing stopping me giving out a .com address to really shady sites.

I figure maybe, the best way to let people register, is not make it obvious the function exists. A user posts as a guest under a nickname, but maybe an optional form field, like, ''Registration brings certain benefits to posting. If you want to register, enter your email address in this field. You can use the SpamBob.net service if you want to remain anonymous.''

Then it could make their post, but remember that they wanted to register. It could send an email to the address providing a link to register (something like register.php?post=123&key=456789) and when they completed registration, it would convert the post they made to a full one.

Re: "Minimalism"? Yeah, right.

People talk about this situation like there is one end-all be-all method for anti-spam registration. This is simply not the case. This issue is constantly evolving on both sides.

46

Re: "Minimalism"? Yeah, right.

I just found out about a registration system even easier and more useful than TypeKey:

http://openid.net/

Looks great!

47

Re: "Minimalism"? Yeah, right.

I've seen something similar lately, it was kind of a network of sites/blogs/forums that had a username/password that would work across all member sites?

I'll see if I can find it again? 

For me personally, I prefer a full member registration system.
Too many spambots, trolls etc. otherwise.
My feelings come from moderating for years, on 1000 member to over 500k members sites.
I have an itchy, ban trigger finger nowadays too lol My spare time is in short supply & I don't have the time or patience for spammy/troll nonsense!
my 2 pesos...

As for a Universal Login/PW like above?... I'd sure want to look it over!

cheers

Re: "Minimalism"? Yeah, right.

wouldn't a universal username/password (or even an OpenID identity) mean that spam bots would only need to register one account to be able to spam every participating site?

49

Re: "Minimalism"? Yeah, right.

mindplay wrote:

wouldn't a universal username/password (or even an OpenID identity) mean that spam bots would only need to register one account to be able to spam every participating site?

you beat me to it lol

50 (edited by Clarence 2005-10-18 13:01)

Re: "Minimalism"? Yeah, right.

All points well taken, but...
Let me give you a scenario to describe a special case which begs special treatment for guest posts:
We are using PunBB for our church's forum engine.  It works fine, except we want to allow anonymous
post to a 'Prayer Requests' forum.  In this case, we don't want to require any login, and we need these posts
to be automatically forwarded to an email address which can't be seen by the posters (to prevent spam).
If any of y'uns can figure out how to do this, please let me know.  Also, please be advised I am a rank
newbie at all this, I have admin access and can spell 'programmer', but that's about it.
Thanks large,
Charlie ;D
p.s. it would be nice, for the shy poster, to optionally eliminate exposure altogether, and just elect to use the
P.R. forum as a store-and-forward doohickey to send the request to the 'secret' email address, but I'm
afraid this would require a major mod to the running gear, like mebbe the addition of a 'send email only'
button...