1 (edited by reviewum.com 2007-07-12 06:32)

Topic: Should I Stick With PunBB for my next project or Switch To vBulletin?

Hey Everyone!

First off, I'm a huge fan of PunBB.  I've been using it for 2 years on my inkjet forum and it works PERFECTLY.  I even made a donation to show my support.   I've installed a few simple mods, but nothing major.

I'm in the process of starting a new community based site and wanted to use PunBB as my core... even using it as my user management system to base the rest of my custom built CMS off of. 

Here's my dilemma: This community will need more bells and whistles than my inkjet forum community... for example, Private Messaging.   I know... I know.. there is a PM mod, but here's the big question... at what point does it make sense to move to another forum software (don't stone me) instead of putting hacks on hacks?    Is it safe to assume that a forum like SMF that has PM built into it will be more "secure" and less problematic during core upgrades then punBB using a mod and hoping that when the core is upgraded, the mod will still work?  Also, how often does one mod install interfere with another?   And, are mods usually built to the same quality standard as the punBB core?

This is just an example, so don't get hung up on the PM mod... it could very well be any one of many mods that effect the DB and make a lot of changes to a lot of pages.   

Am I making any sense?   I need help / reassurance that sticking with PunBB is the right thing to do.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts and comments!

Rob Ludlow 
www.Nifty-Stuff.com - Repository of all Stuff Nifty!
www.reviewum.com - Professor Ratings + Teacher Reviews

Re: Should I Stick With PunBB for my next project or Switch To vBulletin?

1.3 is coming soon(just a guess) so extensions will make mods a lot easier to handle. my 2 cents, stick with punbb.

~James
FluxBB - Less is more

Re: Should I Stick With PunBB for my next project or Switch To vBulletin?

reviewum.com wrote:

Here's my dilemma: This community will need more bells and whistles than my inkjet forum community... for example, Private Messaging.   I know... I know.. there is a PM mod, but here's the big question... at what point does it make sense to move to another forum software (don't stone me) instead of putting hacks on hacks?

Well, it all depends on how many modifications we're talking about. If you could run PunBB with one or two mods, I'd say that's  a viable alternative. If, however, you need to apply 5 or 6 mods in order to get the functionality you need, I'd go with something else.

It should also be noted that the extension support in 1.3 will make life a lot easier. We'll have a couple of officially supported extensions (for popular items such as PM). You can expect these to be of the same quality as the rest of PunBB.

"Programming is like sex: one mistake and you have to support it for the rest of your life."

Re: Should I Stick With PunBB for my next project or Switch To vBulletin?

Rickard wrote:

It should also be noted that the extension support in 1.3 will make life a lot easier. We'll have a couple of officially supported extensions (for popular items such as PM). You can expect these to be of the same quality as the rest of PunBB.

That's what I needed to hear, thanks Rickard!

Rob Ludlow 
www.Nifty-Stuff.com - Repository of all Stuff Nifty!
www.reviewum.com - Professor Ratings + Teacher Reviews

Re: Should I Stick With PunBB for my next project or Switch To vBulletin?

I think you should go for SMF. Don't get me wrong, punbb is by far my favorite forum software and i recently start to contribute with modules. But there is an issue on modules usage that i faced in the past and it's damn anoying.
If you have like 5 or 6 modules, when you update you will have to do the hard work over and over again... and some modules require going on the line 304985 of the file whatever.php and replace "xpto" by "sputnik".
If you need more bells and whistles i strongly recomend you SMF. The base core of features ( too many for my taste ) should do it. So you can easly update without any trouble.

Personaly, the thing i like with punbb is the right amount of features.... not too simplistic and not to barroc. If your comunity is not i dont think you should force it on it.

Re: Should I Stick With PunBB for my next project or Switch To vBulletin?

pedrotuga, really good points!   I'm thinking I may go for a balance:   Add a few very important mods and also train my community that all the bells / whitles don't make as much difference as they think they do.

Another concern is monitoring / updating multiple forum applications.   The last thing I want to do is become an admin over punbb, smf, phpbb, etc. etc. etc.   It's nice to have one common script and know the ins/outs of that one program.

Rob Ludlow 
www.Nifty-Stuff.com - Repository of all Stuff Nifty!
www.reviewum.com - Professor Ratings + Teacher Reviews

7

Re: Should I Stick With PunBB for my next project or Switch To vBulletin?

reviewum.com wrote:

The last thing I want to do is become an admin over punbb, smf, phpbb, etc. etc. etc.

That's the main reason I've stuck with one app per purpose. It's easier to stay current if all your forums run the same app or your front ends run the same CMS. Heck, just staying current with 4 or 5 main apps is a task in itself, throw in different apps per domain and you're asking for a headache.

A pleasant side effect from standardizing on certain apps is that it's very easy to launch new domains at will.

8

Re: Should I Stick With PunBB for my next project or Switch To vBulletin?

pedrotuga wrote:

I think you should go for SMF. Don't get me wrong, punbb is by far my favorite forum software and i recently start to contribute with modules. But there is an issue on modules usage that i faced in the past and it's damn anoying.
If you have like 5 or 6 modules, when you update you will have to do the hard work over and over again... and some modules require going on the line 304985 of the file whatever.php and replace "xpto" by "sputnik".
If you need more bells and whistles i strongly recomend you SMF. The base core of features ( too many for my taste ) should do it. So you can easly update without any trouble.

Personaly, the thing i like with punbb is the right amount of features.... not too simplistic and not to barroc. If your comunity is not i dont think you should force it on it.

Although SMF is a good forum, there are way too many files and if I remember correct LumbyTrain (LT) was hacked and was on an SMF board.

9 (edited by reviewum.com 2007-07-12 06:48)

Re: Should I Stick With PunBB for my next project or Switch To vBulletin?

Hey kids,

Since I started this thread I'm going to dig it back up with an update and a bunch of questions.  I ended up going with punBB for my recent project and so far I'm mostly glad I did.  There are moments that I wish I had all the bells / whistles of vBulletin, but I'm afraid the resources required to run a big forum on that platform would have been too much for my budget (hosting costs, not the software).  With that said I'm realizing that for some of the members of my new community the bells and whistles are more important than speed and performance.

So, here I am running punBB with a pretty busy forum.  I want to start adding more mods but have been holding out for version 1.3 and the magic extension system.  The "big" mods I'd love to add are:

Mark Topics Read
Easy Poll
Private Messages

From what I understand "mark as read" will be built into the core and the other two are first on the list for "supported extensions".   The big question I have is do I install them myself (very manual / difficult process) or wait for 1.3 and extensions?  Here are my issues / problems / concerns / thoughts:

1)  1.3 may be 3, 6 or 12 months away... nobody knows.  From what I see, the early discussions of 1.3 go back to January of 2005
2)  Even if 1.3 was released tomorrow it would still take time for the dust to settle and for the extensions to be built / tested

So, with this uncertainty I begin to go down the path of installing the existing mods manually, but this brings up a bunch of other issues:

1)  We all know it is just a pain to manually hack the code to add mods
2)  I'm not php / PunBB savvy enough to know which mods will break / effect other mods where and when.  It scares me to death that I'll follow one of the "Replace this line with this line" instructions and kill an already installed mod or cripple my forum.
3)  Lets say I magically get all the mods working together (like smartys has on his cool PunBB hosting site).   Well, then I'd be worried that ever time there is a PunBB security / version release that the patch files that have worked flawlessly thus far (knock on wood) would stop working because of a "heavily modified forum" and I'd have to edit all the updates manually... blah.  sad
4)  What if one of the mods causes problems on my server (for example, hogging resources).  If you thought manually adding a mod was a pain, try hunting through code to remove it!  This is one of my biggest joys of an extention and being able to add / remove seamlessly.
5)  Once 1.3 rolls out with all the cool extensions, how  difficult will it be to upgrade to 1.3 and then clean up all the hacked pages and integrate / load the cleaner extensions?


So, where does this leave me?  Should I have gone with vBulletin originally?   Should I make the switch now?  Should I install the mods or wait for 1.3 and extensions?

I seriously look forward to your comments & suggestions!

Rob Ludlow 
www.Nifty-Stuff.com - Repository of all Stuff Nifty!
www.reviewum.com - Professor Ratings + Teacher Reviews

10

Re: Should I Stick With PunBB for my next project or Switch To vBulletin?

install the mods now, there is nothing really difficult if you follow the instructions exactly. The most common issues with mod installation is people copying/replacing entrie lines when the readme ask for only a part of it.

11

Re: Should I Stick With PunBB for my next project or Switch To vBulletin?

reviewum.com wrote:

So, with this uncertainty I begin to go down the path of installing the existing mods manually, but this brings up a bunch of other issues:

1)  We all know it is just a pain to manually hack the code to add mods
2)  I'm not php / PunBB savvy enough to know which mods will break / effect other mods  ...
3)  I'd be worried that ... the patch files that have worked flawlessly thus far (knock on wood) would stop working...
4)  What if one of the mods causes problems on my server (for example, hogging resources).  If you thought manually adding a mod was a pain, try hunting through code to remove it! ...
5)  Once 1.3 rolls out with all the cool extensions, how  difficult will it be to upgrade to 1.3 and then clean up all the hacked pages and integrate / load the cleaner extensions?

Just some thoughts on this:
(1) Indeed. It's a very primitive way of doing things. Tedious, risky, in-elegant. Very un-2007.
(2) and (3) and (4): The way I work through these issues is:

(a) even with my limited knowledge of PHP, I try and thoroughly understand what each new mod or patch is trying to do. Worryingly, you often don't have to know much to see that some punbb mods have significant problems that you can often catch before their code goes into your forum smile
(b) I thoroughly document every mod and code alteration that I make so I know what I did to what page and when, which mod modified the database  etc;
(c) I maintain a 'dev' punBB which I build any mods, security patches or tweaks into first, with all the 'reveal queries' config switches on, and then if they test out and work OK with the existing code, they then go into my production punBB codebase;
(d) I never use automated patchers or diff toools. I manually apply all updates using tools like WinMerge. Things will be guaranteed to break otherwise, and it gives me the chance to eyeball every proposed update.

As to (5) - good question. At least I am pretty confident that I know all of the mods and alterations I have done, so I expect that will help in stepping across (carefully) to 1.3.

As to VB - in some ways it faces the same problems as punBB here. If you make any hacks to it or apply non official VB mods/themes, you'd face may of the same issues in keeping it all working across VB version upgrades.

I guess where VB and other more fully featured forums save you some hassle though is that they have most of the features built-in that may punBB users have to rely on mods and hacks to achieve.

Re: Should I Stick With PunBB for my next project or Switch To vBulletin?

Hey all... i go trough the exact same hard work as you guys. I don't like to hack the forums so much as i like them simple like punbb is. But there is always some specific things on every site that require some code hacking.
Hooks will help a lot on this hopefully.

I will keep an eye on this thread as i am also looking forward to punbb 1.3.

Re: Should I Stick With PunBB for my next project or Switch To vBulletin?

So, where does this leave me?  Should I have gone with vBulletin originally?   Should I make the switch now?  Should I install the mods or wait for 1.3 and extensions?

I think you answered that yourself already with a couple of comments you made.

but I'm afraid the resources required to run a big forum on that platform would have been too much

From what I understand "mark as read" will be built into the core and the other two are first on the list for "supported extensions".

Personally I say forget about 1.3 It will happen sometime. I believe both PM's and Easy Poll are both expected to be a simple transition without losing any existing messages or polls.

Like everyone else I would love to see a timeline for 1.3 (or atleast a list of hooks that will be added) but the big thing to remember is that when it does come out you don't have to upgrade right away. There will be a beta I'm sure and the mod authors will have time to create and test extensions. Just wait until the mods you are using have proven extensions.

As for installing mods it's not a big deal. Just make sure you have back ups, only install one at a time and keep a record of what you have. Also read the release threads for the mod in question to see if anyone else has run into conflicts with other mods. I'm not familiar with the mark topics read mod but the other two you want are a couple of the most used mods, if there's any issues there's also answers smile