Re: Why I sometimes wish I had a Mac

You make good points, both of you. I do want a Mac more after reading your posts and looking at the lovely screenshots.

The main argument in favor of Windows is of course cost. You can pretty much buy two PC's with equal processing power and storage capacity for the price of one PowerMac. Also, personally, I like to be able to play a game now and then. Something that is virtually impossible in MacOS X.

mi: You run OSX on a G4, 400 mhz? My brother has the same processor in his Powerbook and I find it unbearably slow. I guess I'm spoiled. If my browser doesn't startup within a fraction of a second, I start to think there's something wrong with the computer :)

"Programming is like sex: one mistake and you have to support it for the rest of your life."

77

Re: Why I sometimes wish I had a Mac

Rickard wrote:

mi: You run OSX on a G4, 400 mhz? My brother has the same processor in his Powerbook and I find it unbearably slow. I guess I'm spoiled. If my browser doesn't startup within a fraction of a second, I start to think there's something wrong with the computer smile

It seems to me - and it is my definite experience - that i get more wonderful things done with my "slow" computer than any of my pc friends, no matter how fast a processor they have. Why? Very simple answer/s:
? Everything just works, and is so beautifully well integrated, and most things are made with the same idea www-designers strive for: FEW clicks with consistent disign. And not least; "the attention to detail" - Apple/Mac software is so esthetically and functionally well put together, this is really a strong selling point.
? What takes "forever" to do on a PC (because of comparatively poor integration of both soft- and hardware, a multitude of "properties of properties of properties", inconsistent behaviour/design of most apps, etc), takes so much less time on a Mac, the important factor is not the MHz. (Most the time, sitting by any modern puter is idle time, from the processor's point of view, anyhow.)
? Also, the powerPC gets about twice as many things done compared to the same MHz Intel processor, on a technical level.
? Also, the unix/bsd/freebsd multitasking/multi-processor support/protected memory etc, is so well implemented by almost all Mac apps, for me this means i can do so many things at once (burning a dvd-r while editing more dv-movies, while the whole internet-server runs, while importing lots of large digital images from camera, while video-chatting in iChat..... like i said earlier). And no crashes or hangs.
? The memory handling on a Mac is really sensational. I very seldom quit an app. Good "sleeping" apps dont use any processor time, and its memory is used by "awake" apps if needed. The interface is very adapted for this, no cludgy task-bar...etc.
? A modern Mac starts at 1.25 GHz and much faster bus speeds/memory etc. A semi-professional starts with dual 1.6 GHz processors. The soft- and hardware it is equipped with, compared to a good quality PC with the "equivalent" soft- and hardware...price about the same, today. Then again, in reality, you get much more done, more efficiently and with better results, on a Mac.
? ROI - you know the term - Return Of Investment, in report after report from e.g. Gartner Group, show the above to be true. Wish i had all the links to this now, but i am not a mac-evangelist, you know wink - rather a Macoholic wink

On the game scene, i have concluded this thru the years:
? Large base on PC, most development resources spent on that platform, gives "better" games (which is not the case with professional apps as much, because Mac already has its niches in the media/multimedia/educational world).
? Apple really does not support the massive game industry. Why not? Well...and this is probably quite controversial...The game scene is to a very large degree shoot/kill/blood/violence...and inasmuch this is a reflection of "bad karma", Apple chooses to support other things, which reflect "good karma". (Please don't hate me for saying this, but it is a very much problematic thing, the game scene, when it comes to boys' exposure to violence etc. New Zeeland just the other day forbid a very new PC game due to its bloody and violent nature, and would fine any retailer who sold it by hundreds of thousands of their currency...
Anyway, there are some very good games for mac, some only on that platform - but games is really not my bag, so...then again, i know a number of devout maccers who use a pc just for games...o well...

Hope i have not expressed to many subjective and emotional things about using a Mac. But then again, using a Mac is very often about much of that, and it would be wrong to neglect that from a comparison. Apple is determined in their goal for their OS - it should be a pleasurable and seam-less user experience - and to a very large degree, they have really succeded, thanks to (among many things) unix/freeBSD/BSD - on the server os called "open source made easy".

One more thing - the Apple GUI for all underlying *nix processes, to some may seem like it would "lock you up" in a pre-defined box and way/method of using the machine. But this is in no way the case. My *nix friends on Macs have just as much possibilities to do *nix stuff as on a bona fide *nix box. I am not one of them, but i have seen amazing things done by them on command line level, tweaking and configuring stuff that would take me another life-time to master. As a small example, i ran some unix code to be able to play any divx/avi/mpg in the command line terminal window! Amazing it was, as all them ascii and other characters representing shades of gray flew around, while the stereo sound blasted out - it was kindo like watching a movie in braille for the blind! smile

Hopefully, while out shopping christmas-presents for friends/family/self, you will find some time to go to some Apple Store in Stockholm (Birger Jarlsgatan and Sveavägen has a few)...i donno where your location 127.0.0.1 is wink - and touch and feel the new PowerBooks/iMacs/PowerMacs... When i visit those stores, I definitely have to bring a lot of hancerchiefs, because i drooool so much...as i am one poor maccer with 5-6-yr-old machines... wink

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Re: Why I sometimes wish I had a Mac

mi, you'll definetly be a good salesman, you packed everythins soooooo good (did you ever consider salesman position as a proffesional career?) wink
However, I've tried Mac myself few years ago and didn't like it at all, but I am ready to give another shout smile

Re: Why I sometimes wish I had a Mac

snapsolutions wrote:

mi .... did you ever consider salesman position as a proffesional career? ...

Maybe he is a professional mac salesman smile

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80

Re: Why I sometimes wish I had a Mac

snapsolutions wrote:

I've tried Mac myself few years ago and didn't like it at all, but I am ready to give another shout smile

A few years ago = probably before OS X = before *nix = NOW is the time to test a Mac wink

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Re: Why I sometimes wish I had a Mac

lol and we're just unsuspecting customers-to-be

82 (edited by mi 2004-12-08 17:38)

Re: Why I sometimes wish I had a Mac

ShawnBrown wrote:

Maybe he is a professional mac salesman smile

Nope. I am in the publishing business. And, sorry to say, our company is still using the archaic os9, but successfully producing around 400 pages/week total, for six magazines/papers. 2005, i believe the company will move on to OS X though.
(Guys, i feel embarassed now, i think i have to change my avatar...seeing it too much... wink )

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83 (edited by ShawnBrown 2004-12-08 18:43)

Re: Why I sometimes wish I had a Mac

mi wrote:
ShawnBrown wrote:

Maybe he is a professional mac salesman smile

Nope. I am in the publishing business...

I thought it might be something like that.

I've gone from pro-mac/apple back in the '80s to anti-mac in the '90s and now I'm neutral.

I was, unfortunately, working tech-support for my university in the '90s when macs were just awful (at least if you were providing tech-support for IBM-compatibles and more than one type of mac).

Keep in mind this is from a tech-support perspective: If Apple had gone out of business back then I think they would've deserved it. Most machines had a different version of the OS and each of these OSs had a different collection of patches of varying quality and reliability--and we had no auto-upgrade via the network back then. Macs either ate up a disproportionate amount of the service department's time or they were dumped to the back of a long list and fixed when things were slow. And most of us working there couldn't help but feel annoyed when a mac-cultist client would preach to us about how their mac was inherently better than an IBM-compatible as we fixed their glitchy, buggy computer (this was the exception, of course, but it only took a handful of times to become memorable).

The most hated things to support were (in order): Packard Bells, newer network printers on Windows3.1x machines, Macs, IBM PS2's, and one particular model of Compaq.

I left university--and the tech-support job--just after Apple almost went bankrupt, got financial assistance from Microsoft instead, and then cleaned their act up by releasing OS X and the newer machines.

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Re: Why I sometimes wish I had a Mac

mi: I've already expressed that I like Macs and that I would love to have one. However, since you brought up a batch of new things to discuss, I guess I'd better start writing my reply.

mi wrote:

It seems to me - and it is my definite experience - that i get more wonderful things done with my "slow" computer than any of my pc friends, no matter how fast a processor they have.

I believe that says more about your "pc friends" than anything else. I work in bursts. I can sit idle in front of the computer for hours and then suddently, for a few minutes, become extremely productive. I'm guessing this way of working is the result of me having a very short attention span or something. I'm not saying that having a very snappy computer is a requirement, but if the computer I'm working on doesn't respond immediately when I'm "in the zone", I get annoyed and often loose track of what I'm doing. If I have to wait 15 seconds for Photoshop to start up, I'm lost :)

mi wrote:

? Everything just works, and is so beautifully well integrated, and most things are made with the same idea www-designers strive for: FEW clicks with consistent disign. And not least; "the attention to detail" - Apple/Mac software is so esthetically and functionally well put together, this is really a strong selling point.
? What takes "forever" to do on a PC (because of comparatively poor integration of both soft- and hardware, a multitude of "properties of properties of properties", inconsistent behaviour/design of most apps, etc), takes so much less time on a Mac, the important factor is not the MHz. (Most the time, sitting by any modern puter is idle time, from the processor's point of view, anyhow.)

You're preaching to the choir here, but I just can't stop myself. You brought it up. Isn't it odd that iChat has the brushed metal look? It's in "violation" of Apple's own Human Interface Guidelines.

mi wrote:

? Also, the powerPC gets about twice as many things done compared to the same MHz Intel processor, on a technical level.

You've been watching too many Steve Jobs keynotes. We could venture into a discussion on the old "wide and shallow" vs. "narrow and deep" subject, but let's not go there. Suffice to say, your remark about a powerPC processor getting "twice as many things done" is quite far from the truth. There's a lot more to it. I recommend reading some of the CPU theory articles over at ArsTechnica.com. They are very technical, but "ars" is one of the few places on the net where one can read truly objective articles on IBM's and Intel/AMD's processors.

mi wrote:

? Also, the unix/bsd/freebsd multitasking/multi-processor support/protected memory etc, is so well implemented by almost all Mac apps, for me this means i can do so many things at once (burning a dvd-r while editing more dv-movies, while the whole internet-server runs, while importing lots of large digital images from camera, while video-chatting in iChat..... like i said earlier). And no crashes or hangs.

That's nice. However, it has everything to do with the BSD backend and pretty much nothing to do with the apps themselves.

mi wrote:

? The memory handling on a Mac is really sensational. I very seldom quit an app. Good "sleeping" apps dont use any processor time, and its memory is used by "awake" apps if needed. The interface is very adapted for this, no cludgy task-bar...etc.

Once again, something that should be attributed OSX's UNIX backbone.

mi wrote:

? Large base on PC, most development resources spent on that platform, gives "better" games (which is not the case with professional apps as much, because Mac already has its niches in the media/multimedia/educational world).

True.

mi wrote:

? Apple really does not support the massive game industry. Why not? Well...and this is probably quite controversial...The game scene is to a very large degree shoot/kill/blood/violence...and inasmuch this is a reflection of "bad karma", Apple chooses to support other things, which reflect "good karma". (Please don't hate me for saying this, but it is a very much problematic thing, the game scene, when it comes to boys' exposure to violence etc. New Zeeland just the other day forbid a very new PC game due to its bloody and violent nature, and would fine any retailer who sold it by hundreds of thousands of their currency...
Anyway, there are some very good games for mac, some only on that platform - but games is really not my bag, so...then again, i know a number of devout maccers who use a pc just for games...o well...

It's no wonder Apple doesn't support the gaming industry. It wouldn't make sense from an economical standpoint. Sure, maybe Apple could boost the number of games that are being developed for MacOSX by working closer together with the gaming industry, but then again, most Mac users aren't interested in games and their computers often have seriously inferior graphic accelerators. Who would buy the games? American schools? Ad agencies? Publishers? Music producers?

mi wrote:

One more thing - the Apple GUI for all underlying *nix processes, to some may seem like it would "lock you up" in a pre-defined box and way/method of using the machine. But this is in no way the case. My *nix friends on Macs have just as much possibilities to do *nix stuff as on a bona fide *nix box.

True and this is one of the reasons I want MacOSX. I want the power of the *NIX commandline and the polish of the UI.

mi wrote:

Hopefully, while out shopping christmas-presents for friends/family/self, you will find some time to go to some Apple Store in Stockholm (Birger Jarlsgatan and Sveavägen has a few)...i donno where your location 127.0.0.1 is ;) - and touch and feel the new PowerBooks/iMacs/PowerMacs... When i visit those stores, I definitely have to bring a lot of hancerchiefs, because i drooool so much...as i am one poor maccer with 5-6-yr-old machines... ;)

I wouldn't dare walk into an Apple store. I'd end up spending way too much money.

"Programming is like sex: one mistake and you have to support it for the rest of your life."

85

Re: Why I sometimes wish I had a Mac

Rickard wrote:

mi: I've already expressed that I like Macs and that I would love to have one.

I understand that, i guess i got carried away wink - and there are others enjoying the "show", it seems.

Rickard wrote:

If I have to wait 15 seconds for Photoshop to start up, I'm lost smile

Which is why i don't quit apps wink

Rickard wrote:

Isn't it odd that iChat has the brushed metal look? It's in "violation" of Apple's own Human Interface Guidelines.

Hmm...I ran thru that page, and don't see what you see about violation...iChat really works well with brushed metal, and the guidelines speak of using both. Brushed when it "Provides an interface for a digital peripheral, such as a camera, or an interface for managing data shared with digital peripherals?iPhoto or iSync, for example." - which iChat also does. o well

Rickard wrote:

I wouldn't dare walk into an Apple store. I'd end up spending way too much money.

ROTFLMAO

Hope my new avatar shows up.
Hope you stay the way you do, as you have created the most excellent BB.
Hope you have a wonderful christmas, and that the finalizing of punBB 1.2 goes well - don't let platform discussions slow you down wink wink

And for the rest of you all, i must express this: To me, it is a very pleasant experience to "be" among you all like this - cuz there seems to be no hostility or flaming pride here - Here, things seem to be all about what it really is about, which i respect and value so much. Thank you smile

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86

Re: Why I sometimes wish I had a Mac

In case anyone interested in a snapshot of my activities atm: (just for curiosities sake)

[MischasPowerBook:~] mischa% top -u
Processes:  76 total, 2 running, 74 sleeping... 234 threads            22:59:49
Load Avg:  0.50, 0.41, 0.50     CPU usage:  12.4% user, 30.1% sys, 57.5% idle
SharedLibs: num =  124, resident = 40.9M code, 3.27M data, 13.0M LinkEdit
MemRegions: num = 13550, resident =  292M + 16.0M private,  175M shared
PhysMem:   110M wired,  359M active,  427M inactive,  897M used,  126M free
VM: 5.99G + 85.6M   216532(0) pageins, 128626(0) pageouts

  PID COMMAND      %CPU   TIME   #TH #PRTS #MREGS RPRVT  RSHRD  RSIZE  VSIZE
 3095 top         27.9%  0:47.28   1    16    26   612K   476K  2.45M  27.1M
  959 Terminal     4.2%  8:16.49   4    76   169  2.12M+ 15.1M  16.0M+ 99.9M+
  551 Safari       3.6%  9:36:39  19   891  1272   131M  52.8M   133M   575M 
  186 WindowServ   1.8%  3:18:33   3   804  1052  16.7M- 73.0M  85.3M-  176M-
 1776 iCal         1.2% 49:44.37   4   114   497  13.0M  21.6M  31.0M   117M
 3089 Wish Shell   1.2%  0:45.05   3    81   345  9.68M  19.7M  22.8M   163M
    0 kernel_tas   0.6%  1:53:25  36     2  2468  18.1M     0K  95.9M   758M
  348 SystemUISe   0.6% 18:13.12   4   152   321  2.64M  24.9M  13.9M   112M
  366 Konfabulat   0.0%  1:45:43   2    69   132  1.51M  13.2M  12.8M  94.8M
  465 KDXClient    0.0% 97:18.35   5   203   217  3.46M  38.1M  24.9M   137M
 2078 iTunes       0.0% 85:24.73   5   451   390  15.5M  33.7M  26.9M   166M
   90 configd      0.0% 53:31.10   3   158   207   568K  1.45M  1.07M  29.5M
  364 Konfabulat   0.0% 32:25.71   2    72   132  2.11M  11.5M  12.8M  95.4M
  383 MPlayer OS   0.0% 14:39.64   3    88   132  1.10M  11.6M  8.02M   101M
  359 USBOverdri   0.0% 12:52.99   2    74    83   432K  7.09M  5.88M  77.8M
 3021 Mail         0.0%  8:53.23   9   182   383  20.2M  35.6M  60.9M   164M
  367 Konfabulat   0.0%  8:36.96   2    69   125  1.36M  11.6M  12.8M  93.6M
  345 Dock         0.0%  7:39.25   3   141   216  1.43M  14.5M  13.9M  88.7M
  357 LaunchBar    0.0%  6:19.02   2    69   177  2.65M  12.4M  14.2M  98.2M
  122 update       0.0%  5:59.95   1     9    15    16K   372K    80K  17.6M
    2 mach_init    0.0%  3:58.91   2   364    17   168K   392K   260K  18.2M
  476 TextEdit     0.0%  3:37.79   4   130   268  4.43M  33.4M  23.5M   124M
  228 AquaMonSer   0.0%  3:02.95   3    49    74   436K  1.55M  5.39M  53.2M
  525 Address Bo   0.0%  1:54.77   2   102   171  2.28M  15.6M  19.4M  97.8M
  314 automount    0.0%  1:51.99   3    71    40   268K   960K  4.05M  29.1M
  372 SecurityAg   0.0%  1:50.39   3    84   141  1.98M  13.4M  14.5M  97.8M
  287 ntpd         0.0%  1:25.88   1    10    18   104K   468K   612K  17.9M
 2086 iChatAgent   0.0%  1:19.99   5    73   125  2.70M  3.10M  5.39M  48.0M
 3051 iChat        0.0%  1:09.04   8   301   409  6.64M  34.8M  34.7M   159M
  368 YKBackgrou   0.0%  1:07.06   2    58    87   616K  7.19M  7.79M  85.1M
  251 cupsd        0.0%  1:06.50   1    11    30   640K   920K  1.67M  28.3M
  355 LittleSnit   0.0%  1:04.09   7   273   233  2.56M  24.3M  18.7M   112M
  189 ATSServer    0.0%  0:58.69   2    92   293  1.85M  20.7M  7.92M   153M
 2877 Finder       0.0%  0:55.29   2   122   315  7.15M  43.0M  22.7M   135M
  365 Konfabulat   0.0%  0:49.72   2    72   142  3.20M  12.4M  14.0M  97.2M
  120 netinfod     0.0%  0:42.91   1    10    29   128K   460K   312K  27.0M
  203 DirectoryS   0.0%  0:40.97   2    71   113   828K  1.62M  2.75M  31.5M
  195 loginwindo   0.0%  0:37.72   4   203   250  2.65M  23.4M  16.3M  96.8M
  360 Konfabulat   0.0%  0:35.51   7   115   303  2.29M  30.3M  18.0M   132M
 2498 QuickTime    0.0%  0:34.50   3   262   224  5.24M  25.8M  22.3M   116M
  317 automount    0.0%  0:30.62   2    29    27   104K   892K   672K  28.3M 
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Re: Why I sometimes wish I had a Mac

mi wrote:

Which is why i don't quit apps ;)

I, on the other hand, suffer from Open Apps Syndrome. I close apps the instant I don't use them. I know I don't have to, but I guess it's a remnant from the old Windows9x/MacOS7/8/9 days :)

mi wrote:

Hmm...I ran thru that page, and don't see what you see about violation...iChat really works well with brushed metal, and the guidelines speak of using both. Brushed when it "Provides an interface for a digital peripheral, such as a camera, or an interface for managing data shared with digital peripherals?iPhoto or iSync, for example." - which iChat also does. o well

But it doesn't? What kind of digital periphal does iChat provide an interface for? I know iChat AV can be used to do video conferencing with iSight, but that's hardly what they mean by "provides an interface for". It has to do with a usability term called mapping. A CD-player might have a brushed metal case and therefore it's suitable to have a brushed metal UI representation for a CD-player application. However, for iChat, that mapping doesn't apply.

There are more examples. What digital periphal does Safari provide an interface for? Font book?

mi wrote:

Hope my new avatar shows up.

It sure does. I kind of miss the old image though. People having their own picture as an avatar is quite uncommon :)

mi wrote:

Hope you stay the way you do, as you have created the most excellent BB.
Hope you have a wonderful christmas, and that the finalizing of punBB 1.2 goes well - don't let platform discussions slow you down ;) ;)

You have to take a break from coding sometimes. Discussing Apple is a nice break :) Oh, merry christmas to you too.

"Programming is like sex: one mistake and you have to support it for the rest of your life."

88

Re: Why I sometimes wish I had a Mac

Rickard wrote:

I kind of miss the old image though. People having their own picture as an avatar is quite uncommon smile

Hope this one is ok wink

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Re: Why I sometimes wish I had a Mac

Much better :)

"Programming is like sex: one mistake and you have to support it for the rest of your life."

Re: Why I sometimes wish I had a Mac

I like the first one better wink

Btw interesting news here

Re: Why I sometimes wish I had a Mac

I don't have a smiley for this situation :)

"Programming is like sex: one mistake and you have to support it for the rest of your life."

92 (edited by Connorhd 2004-12-09 20:33)

Re: Why I sometimes wish I had a Mac

http://www.ctrlaltdel-online.com/?t=arc … 2004-10-20

edit: maybe i should type something so its less like spam anyway ^^^

93

Re: Why I sometimes wish I had a Mac

snapsolutions wrote:

Btw interesting news here

Our travels from server to server have nothing to do with operating systems... >snip< We probably will hit one or all of them again in the future.

My guess is that Macers are not biased, except against win-tel wink

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94 (edited by mi 2004-12-09 22:10)

Re: Why I sometimes wish I had a Mac

snapsolutions wrote:

I like the first one better wink

OK - take your pick, votes now accepted wink;)

1. The present one
2. http://www.hammarnejd.gr8.se/humor/linus_linje_animgif.gif
3. http://www.hammarnejd.gr8.se/pics/AppleSmallLogo.gif
4. http://www.hammarnejd.gr8.se/pics/apple_stor.png
5. http://www.hammarnejd.gr8.se/pics/gr8banner.gif
6. http://www.hammarnejd.gr8.se/pics/transparent_mac_logo.gif
7. http://gr8.se/kdx/pics/mi.jpg

Linking to any of these for your own avatar use is fine wink

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Re: Why I sometimes wish I had a Mac

This is probably suicide coming from a person primarily using Windows, but here are some other suggestions:

http://www.icomm.ca/emily/pictures/apple.jpg

http://www.phatdrumloops.com/old_site/thinkdiff.gif

http://www.graphixmad.plus.com/mac_troubleshooter/images/system_error.gif

http://www.perlwizard.org/images/bush_think.jpg

http://www.peif.net/images/imasection/imac.jpg

http://www.sfgate.com/chronicle/pictures/2003/10/16/bu_apple04.jpg

My favorite is the one with Bush :)

"Programming is like sex: one mistake and you have to support it for the rest of your life."

96

Re: Why I sometimes wish I had a Mac

ahhhhh ...man!!   U BAD!!

hmmmm ....I guess I need to dig out all my old BILLY BOX jokes.  smile

97

Re: Why I sometimes wish I had a Mac

Connorhd wrote:

has anyone ever managed to correctly configure a linux system before?

www.yahoo.com

98

Re: Why I sometimes wish I had a Mac

Just can't fathom how not to go with osx server...
Read this, pure joy:
http://www.apple.com/server/macosx/tiger/

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Re: Why I sometimes wish I had a Mac

I started out as a Mac user. I loved my old iMac but the price and compatibility the PC sucked me in. PC's can be very fast an effective if you know what you're doing and how to maintain it. The Apple laptops still make my mouth water though.

I recently discover Linux (SuSE 9.1 Pro), VERY interesting but it still aimed too much at the real power user. Definitely one to keep an eye on though; it was lighting quick, infinitely customizable, very pretty (that's be the old KDE) and very secure. Plus it came with a massive amount of free applications on the 4 discs; not just any old rubbish either, full quality apps. 

I'd still be running a dual boot if it worked on my new Dell laptop.

Re: Why I sometimes wish I had a Mac

mi wrote:

OK - take your pick, votes now accepted wink;)

Number 7 again wink I guess I am just used to see the old mi.

Linking to any of these for your own avatar use is fine wink

Why would I put your pic as my avatar? big_smile

Btw this is cute smile

http://www.apple.com/macmini/specs.html