PunBB vs. Punres (Page 2 of 2)

Oh goody! <2hawks likes a good argument! ;^P>

   Thank you for your responses and insights pogenwurst.  I think you make some very solid, good, and quite compelling, points.  I still would consider that "thinking differently" is acceptable and may be better, rather than actually creating problems or false impressions, etc.  Of course, it seems readily apparent that it really is a matter of opinion, so considering your (friendly) retort I would certainly not presume to 'argue' an absolute right vs. wrong... just possibilities...

   Generally speaking I feel that showing people the possibilities, albeit in some otherwise creative fashion, while accommodating their 'natural' needs, can be quite effective, and is not creating false impressions if proper attention is given to responsible presentation of the barebones core (and people aren't later being hit with a hidden cost for the "extra stuff", of course)...

Point by point...
1) I do (and did) understand it was only your own personal opinion, but it seemed it might be fairly accurately representing the heart of the developers' concerns and the centerpiece of the problem... and so I figured it was safe to take that up directly - seems a/the strong issue, this one of 'what is proper representation". 

   In fact, I think the concern over presenting falsity or insufficiency in the product is probably more born of pier pressure (what other limited thinkers [long-standing piers in the business] consider "proper representation should be" for this kind of thing) rather than honest and practical (fresh) consideration for what is natural and best for everyone. 
   My opinion is "I don't care what the other car manufacturer thinks is best or right marketing for cars, I want to think about the people I am selling to, and help them holistically understand the benefits in the best way possible."
   So okay, I got your "basic Honda" here, that can do x,y, and z, but I want to show you what its like when I include the radio, heater, air-conditioning and cushy seats.  Is that cool, or what?! Do those come stock? - Well no, they aren't needed, but you can have those and many more choices ...and at no additional cost and with no modifications to the core of the vehicle! (i.e: the place for all that stuff is already built in - you simply build it up to suit your own needs)... Yeah, its built to take on all that and more... pretty cool, huh?
   More than sufficient, very powerful, and fun to boot!
   And no lies.

2)

Well, yes and no. I think this is arguable.  I think 'false impression' is a bit harsh, if not even inaccurate.  As an unwitting investigator coming here I would not personally feel that way, especially given that a demo of the barebones setup is right there. 
   On the one hand folks prone to installing something like a Bulletin Board are largely (admittedly not all) into some tech, meaning someone like myself may not only have some capacity to understand, but also to appreciate, that the developers tweaked their own "barebones" project with "readily available plugins" to suit the practicality for this place, ...and that demonstrates what this project can and does support... So That to me 'is' what it is and is also how it works.   
   That's all good, as well as true and honest, stuff in my book. I am some dude looking for a BBSto build and this has got me excited - I am not getting the "false" light here.
  On the other hand, if I have a preconceived notion that the base forum ought to be only the barebones, then, indeed, I will be challenged in my thinking when I come to this place.  But that doesn't mean I am being presented false impressions.  If it pisses me off I might leave.  If it catches my attention, I might choose to stay a bit and check it out anyway.  I might even learn something.  Well I came here to investigate and learn, so there shouldn't be a problem anyway.

   Seems to me the only real question there is how many inquirers do I expect I might lose compared to those that might stay and check it out and get excited?  Are the ones who might check out ones I really care all that much about anyway? (Let 'em go back to phpbb [or whatever] for all I care... if that's what they want, prefab stuff is out there for them!  And this is here for us 'other people', and this is how we are approaching it - in a way different than "the other guys".)

I have read this in these forums before and I totally disagree with this.  Again, a la what I stated above, given a demo of the barebones, and then seeing what the pro's are doing with it 'at home', only tells me there's that much more possible with this package - thus it is not only sufficient, it is way more than simply sufficient... it is also powerful because it can do the core thing on its own AND you can build on that... I mean, you do not have to buy something else to 'make it so', you only need to investigate and create, or utilize what has been created for it.  I just find the 'falseness' attitude unnecessarily conservative and, well, limiting and untrue. 
    ....I mean, conservatively I see your position as mostly 'logically correct'... but I don't see how that kind of thinking (probably 'status quo') really takes into consideration the understandable needs of the people who will be coming here and investigating this.  I do not see an argument in conservative logic that necessarily invalidates utilizing a creative approach.  If someone sees something false in this, then they simply aren't bothering enough to really check it out - then its probably not for them anyway.
   I mean who cares about the way the 'other guys" are doing it?... Who made them the 'gods' of 'the right and true way"... obviously nobody did because people are coming to Rickard?s house now to check out the party happening over here, and these Honda's are freaking cool, man. I'm gonna get one and play with it!

3)

Again, you make a 'conservatively' logical point, but I don't think it is necessary or required to support peoples expectations with only straight conservative logic.  A creative approach could be quite insightful and compelling if handled well, and could open people up to alternative thinking/logic that is equally valid (maybe even healthy)... which I see as in keeping with the spirit of the project. 
   I do not think it would be harmful if you arrived at the forum with some preconceived expectation, only to have your assumptions challenged... in fact, isn't that part of the idea?  As long as I am not lying to you and I am leading you in a manner where you can readily and easily gather all the pertinent info and make an informed choice, it doesn't matter whatever your preconceived notions were.  No harm, no foul.

4)

I have done a lot of collaborating, with all kinds of support resources, including email, so yes, I know about it.  If you have ever collaborated over the phone you know its way more immediately productive than relying on (and waiting on) email.  IRC is a close second, maybe the closest, so I find it worthy of mention for this type of "co-productive" environment.  You can get a lot more done with less waiting - and I bet if you asked anyone who has used irc for collaborating they would agree with that statement.  Anyway, I think its very close to necessary in such an actively productive environment where phones aren't happening, so it should be mentioned... just my humble opinion.

5)

Because of the pre-existing install base that will not immediately migrate to the new environment.  Just because one comes out with a new version doesn't justify yanking support for the old and existing install base.  Who's going to invest their energy in the new thing if they were slighted with the current investment?  Their going to think, well I'm not doing that again, I cannot trust the developer to support me, and go somewhere else.
  You can soundly bet that many people with complex installs will not migrate right away and that Rickard will keep 1.x.x info and support forum running for the people until such time as that has practically expired.

6)

I am sorry, I did not understand your last point, would you please clarify?

Please don't read any disrespect into any of my remarks, pogenwurst. .  I do have an opinion about the angle of what you present, and I disagree with it, and my opinions may even have some of my ego behind them in some areas; however, let me be clear, I really do appreciate what you (and us all) bring to these forums, and the opportunity afforded to express these ideas together.

I wonder if Rickard is piqued by any of this?

Sincerely,
TwoHawks

@Connorhd...
lol...  of course... don't you mean "I" am confused, I mean since you clearly indicate my misunderstanding?!

My bad (or rather, 'my stupid', but you decide)... I was meaning private, or personal, messaging (pm) system actually... which I incorrectly assumed as irc, but I see my folly in that irc only means chat, ...sorry. 
- But what the hey, either would do. - 

...I never saw any indication before on this website that irc for punbb existed.  I see your reference, but since I am totally unfamiliar with what you posted I will have to google it and figure it out (np).  Thank you for mentioning it.

  What I find strange is why I never had anyone here ask me to collaborate with them utilizing this, yet I have been asked to sign up for pm (like yahoo and aol) occasionally?  Also, its not listed on the home page, so I do not know how it is intended I would 'naturally'  find out about the availability of that here ...did I overlook something blatantly obvious?

Cheers,
TwoHawks

EDIT - PostScript: I go to the site quakenet and search for #punbb (and did many other searches), but I turn up bupkiss. It is not clear to me at all how to use this service.  How is one supposed to access this chat zone you mention, Connorhd?  thanks.

Let me just get you up to speed on a few terms here
IRC is a chat protocol which doesn't work through your webbrowser without a client, either a program like mirc or a java applet like pjirc, irc is "instant" chat rather than a forum
PMs are a feature of both IRC and of most forums, punbb doesn't have this feature by default as emails are a more effective way of contacting each other, for PMs to work on IRC both users have to be online at the same time.

To connect to the punbb chat room you can download a chat client such as mirc (www.mirc.com) connect to the server quakenet and type /join #punbb and yes the punbb chat room isn't very well advertised.
or after installing mirc simple Click Here

Thank you for the clarifications, Connorhd ...and Jansson.

   I agree, and feel strongly, that it is most productive to always be posting issues and their solutions in forums one may be participating in.  It is important so that everyone may benefit from the record of the information of troubleshooting procedures and solutions, whether or not work continued [for whatever reason] somewhere else outside the forum.

Last comment on this:   There are times when a topic can become bogged down... and people may feel it better to move outside for some one on one work, and then come back later to post what happened [in a more condensed or precisce communication].  I find it a huge bonus when my bbs is providing that/those feature(s) 'built-in' so others and myself do not have to deal with having to figure out who may have what pm or irc clients installed and setup, or focus on installing/settingup new services for ourselves, or working out email problems, in order to do that.

I have to say I have found it quite compelling that others have worked on providing such cool mods as pm/irc stuff for punbb.  Seems to me a most natural combination, and I do no t think I am alone in that thinking - it seems very popular here, indeed. 

Cheers,
TwoHawks

@Connorhd
Ty, Cool... I thought you were making a plugin for 1.3 ;^)

I'm going to be busy for the next few days or longer, so unfortunately I cannot keep arguing like this, despite wanting to.

Here's what I had written already, but was waiting to post until I had written more.