1 Reply by Deadman

(88 replies, posted in Archive)

Aleksei wrote:

Deadman
????? ?????? ????? Unicode (????) ? ?????????????? ?????? UTF-8, ??? ????????, ???????? ???????? ??? ????????? ?????????? ?????? ? ??????? ?????????. ?? ?????? ?????? ??????????? ???? ?? ??? ?????????????, ???? ??? ????? ?? ??????????.

??? ???? ??????? ?????? smile - ???????? ? ??? ??? ???? ?? ??? ????? (?????????) ??????? - ????????? ???????? ? ???????????? ?????? ?????? ?????? UTF-8

? ?? ?????????????? ???????????? ??????? ???????? ? ?? ?????? ??????????? ????????? ? ???????.

???! ?????? ????? ?????. ?????? ??????? ??????? ??????? ? ????? ??????!? ?????? ??? ????? ????! ???, ? ?????? ???? ?? ????!

?????????.
Aleksei

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2 Reply by Deadman

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Aleksei wrote:

????? ????? ???????? ????????? c ?????????? UTF-8 ? ??????? ????????? w3c:

http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http% … Fmain.html

??????:

NOTE: :
The Unicode Byte-Order Mark (BOM) in UTF-8 encoded files is known to cause problems for some text editors and older browsers. You may want to consider avoiding its use until it is better supported.

2Aleksei ????? ?????????? - ?? ??????????! ?????? ??????????? ??????????????? ?????!
?? ?????????, ????? ??????????!

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3 Reply by Deadman

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Dexus wrote:

Deadman, ñæàòûå ñòðàíè÷êè âî 1-õ - ïîääåðæèâàþò íå âñå ñåðâåðà, âî 2-õ - íå âñå êëèåíòà, â 3-õ - äàæå áóäó÷è ñæàòûìè îíè áóäóòü íàìíîãî áîëüøå ÷åì ñæàòûå íà koi8-r/cp1251.

Ïîëüçà îò utf çàêëþ÷àåòñÿ â óíèâåðñàëüíîñòè(ïîääåðæêå âñåõ âèäîâ ïèñüìåííîñòè), ÷òî â çíà÷èòåëüíîé ñòåïåíè îáëåã÷àåò ðàçðàáîòêó ïî, â òîì ÷èñëå è âåá-îðèåíèðîâàííîãî.

 Ðîññèè íóæíî òîëüêî 2 âèäà ïèñüìåííîñòè: êèðèëëèöà è ëàòèíèöà. koi8-r/cp1251 âïîëíå óäîâëåòâîðÿþò ýòè íóæäû. Ïåðåêîäèðîâùèê èç îäíîé â äðóãóþ êàæäûé ïðîãðàììèñò â íà÷àëå ñâîåé äåÿòåëüíîñòè äåëàåò. Íèêàêèõ "èçâðàùåíèé" â ýòîì íåò.

Êàê ÿ óæå ñêàçàë - ÿ äîïóñêàþ utf-8 â èíòåðíàöèîíàëüíûõ, à íå ðóññêèõ ñàéòàõ, è â îáû÷íûõ ïðèëîæåíèÿõ.
Èñïîëüçîâàíèå utf-8 â ðåãóëÿðíîì ñàéòîñòðîèòåëüñòâå ìàëî îòëè÷àåòñÿ îò äîêóìåíòîîáîðîòà â RTF. Òîæå - äîñòàòî÷íî óíèâåðñàëüíàÿ êîäèðîâêà. È äàæå êàðòèíêè âíåäðÿþòñÿ.
Íî ýòî - èçâðàò. Ýòî "òèïà ðàñøèðåíèå" êîäèðîâîê âûõîäèò áîêîì äëÿ êàðìàíà è íåðâîâ. Ìíîãî ëè ïðîãðàìì ñòàðûõ ïîääåðæèâàþò åãî?
È â þíèêñàõ cp1251 èñïîëüçóåòñÿ âïîëíå òàê áåç ïðîáëåì. Ïåðåêîäèðîâùèêè íà êàæäîì øàãó âàëÿþòñÿ.

Âîñïîëüçóéòåñü ïðèíöèïîì îêêàìà - íå ðàçìíîæàéòå ñóùíîñòåé áåç íàäîáíîñòè. Íèêòî îñîáî íå ñòðàäàë áåç utf-8.

ÇÛ: Ïî òîíó òâîèõ ñîîáùåíèé ìîãó äîáàâèòü: îñòàâü ñâîè êîñìîïîëèòè÷åñêèå èäåè äëÿ ñâîèõ ïîòîìêîâ. Íå ñòîèò ïåðåêëàäûâàòü íåíàâèñòü ê ÿçûêó â ñâîþ êàæäîäíåâíóþ äåÿòåëüíîñòü. Ìîæíî ïëîõî êîí÷èòü (íåðâû íå âîññòàíàâëèâàþòñÿ).

ß òàê ïîíÿë òû âîîáùå äàë¸ê îò ÈÒ-òåõíîëîãèé, èíà÷å íå ñòàë áû ïîðîòü òàêóþ ÷óøü. Ê òîìó æå ïðîñìàòðèâàåòñÿ ÿðîå íåæåëàíèå òðåçâî îöåíèâàòü ðåàëüíîñòü, è ïîëíîå èãíîðèðîâàíèå ôàêòîâ. È êàê âñåãäà â òàêèõ ñëó÷àõ íåñïîñîáíîñòü óáåäèòåëüíî âîçðàçèòü àïïîíåòó çàìåíÿåòñÿ íà ëè÷íûå îñêîðáëåíèÿ.  ëþáîì ñëó÷àå ñ÷èòàþ áåññìûñëåííûì ïðîäîëæåíèå äèñêóññèè.

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4 Reply by Deadman

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Ign1111 wrote:
Deadman wrote:

Exactly! With utf8 you need nothing recode.

If you use locale cp1251 or koi8-r, for correct viewing character in russian per utf8, you mast recode filesystem. utf8 compatible with iso-8859-1. utf8 not compatible with iso-8859-5/cp1251/koi8-r. smile

IMHO, you should be a perverse to use cp1251 on unixlike systems.

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5 Reply by Deadman

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Dexus wrote:

ñòàíäàðò ñîñòîèò íå â òîì, ÷òî "îáúÿâëåíî", à ÷òî "ïðèíÿòî".
È utf-8 ÍÅ ÏÐÈÍßÒÎ, â ñâîåì áîëüøèíñòâå, â Ðîññèè.

Ïîëüçà îò utf ìîæåò áûòü òîëüêî äëÿ òåõ ñòðàíè÷åê, â êîòîðûõ ìåøàíèíà âñåõ ÿçûêîâ. È ÷àñòî òàêîå íàäî???

Ïîëüçà îò utf çàêëþ÷àåòñÿ â óíèâåðñàëüíîñòè(ïîääåðæêå âñåõ âèäîâ ïèñüìåííîñòè), ÷òî â çíà÷èòåëüíîé ñòåïåíè îáëåã÷àåò ðàçðàáîòêó ïî, â òîì ÷èñëå è âåá-îðèåíèðîâàííîãî.

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6 Reply by Deadman

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XuMiX wrote:

2 ìåðòâûéòèï:
ìäà.... Â Ðîññèè ñòàíäàðò koi8-r è óæ íèêàê íå UTF-8

Òîãäà óæ ëó÷øå iso-8859-5.

XuMiX wrote:

à â *nix íóæíî åùå è ïîòðàõàòüñÿ, ÷òîáû ó òåáÿ â ñèñòåìå íîðìàëüíî UTF-8 ðàáîòàë, òàê åùå è 90% ïðîã åãî íå ïîääåðæèâàþò..

Òðàõàòüñÿ âîâñå íå íàäî. Ðóññôèêàöèÿ *nix â utf8 ìàëî ÷åì îòëè÷àåòñÿ îò ðóññèôèêàöèè â êîè8.

XuMiX wrote:

90% ïðîã åãî íå ïîääåðæèâàþò..

utf-8 íå ïîääåðæèâàþò íåêîòîðûå ñòàðûå ïðèëîæåíèÿ èñïîëüçóþùèå ïñåâäî-ãðàôèêó. Äëÿ êîíñîëüíûõ ïðèëîæåíèé òàêîé ïðîáëåìû íå ìîæåò áûòü ïî îïðåäåëåíèþ, à äëÿ ïðèëîæåíèé ñ ãðàôè÷åñêèì èíòåðôåéñîì ýòîé ïðîáëåìû óæå äàâíî íå ñóùåñòâóåò.

XuMiX wrote:

ÇÛ è ðàç óæ òû íà ðóññêîì ôîðóìå - ïèøè ïî-ðóññêè, íàõ íèêîìó íå íóæíû òâîè âûåæîíû ñ àíãë. ÿçûêîì

Ïðîñòî ïåðâûé ïîñò ïðî cp1251 áûë íà àíãëèéñêîì, êñòàòè íàãëÿäíî ïðîäåìîíñòðèðîâàë ÷òî cp1251 - îòñòîé.

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7 Reply by Deadman

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Dexus wrote:

Deadman, anyways, using of utf-8 for russian sites will DOUBLE server's and people's bandwidth. It doesn't make any profit, and furthermore, it's a huge disadvantage.
You may keep this coding for international sites.

That's not true. Nobody reject compression.

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8 Reply by Deadman

(88 replies, posted in Archive)

Dexus wrote:

Deadman, ïîãîâîðèì ïî-ðóññêè. Åñëè òû íå çíàêîì ñ êèðèëëè÷åñêèìè êîäèðîâêàìè, òî ýòî ñîâñåì íå îçíà÷àåò, ÷òî îíè "äåðüìî" êàê òû âûðàçèëñÿ.

Âñ¸ òàêè îíè äåðüìî, õîòÿ ÿ è íå ñîâñåì òàê âûðàçèëñÿ, îñîáåííî êîè8. Äóìàþ íå íàäî îáúÿñíÿòü ïî÷åìó.

Dexus wrote:

×òî æ ïîäåëàòü, ðàç â ìèðå êîïòñêî-êèðèëëè÷åñêèé àëôàâèò îñòàåòñÿ áåç äîëæíîãî óâàæåíèÿ è ïî÷òåíèÿ.

Íó, ýòî ñîâñåì íå òàê. Âçÿòü, õîòÿ áû iso-8859-5, ê ïðèìåðó. Âîò ÷åãî íå ñëåäîâàëî äîïóñêàòü, òàê ýòî òàêîãî çîîïàðêà.

Dexus wrote:

Äà, ÿ çíàþ ýòè êîäèðîâêè (cp1251/cp866/koi8-r) çíàþ äîñòàòî÷íî ïîäðîáíî.

Òîãäà çà÷åì òåáå external libraries, êîãäà òû ñâîáîäíî ìîæåøü â õåêñ-ðåäàêòîðå è òàê  âñ¸ ïðî÷èòàòü:-)

Dexus wrote:

È íå íàäî íàâÿçûâàòü íàì ñâîþ áóðæóéñêóþ óíèâåðñàëèçàöèþ. Ìû è ñ koi8/cp1251 îáîéäåìñÿ.

Íåáëàãîäàðíûå, äëÿ âàñ ñòàðàþòñÿ æå. Õîðîøî ÷òî ñíîáû, âðîäå âàñ, îãðàíè÷èâàþòñÿ ýòèì ôîðóìîì, à òî äî ñèõ íà ëàìïàõ ñèäåëè áû, à íå íà ýòèõ "áóðæóéñêèõ" ìèêðîïðîöåññîðàõ.


Dexus wrote:

Âîí, ïî÷òîâàÿ ñèñòåìà îò íà÷àëà ñâîåãî koi8-r èñïîëüçóåò.. è ïîíûíå.

Âñ¸ òå÷¸ò, âñ¸ ìåíÿåòñÿ...

P.S. ß ñ÷èòàþ, ÷òî èäåàëüíûì ðåøåíèåì ïðîáëåìû, áûëî áû ââåäåíèÿ íà ãîñóäàðñòâåííîì óðîâíå òðàíñëèòà, êàê â ÿïîíèè íàïðèìåð, è ñî âðåìåíåì - îòêàç îò êèðèëèöû, íî ýòî óæ ÷åðåç÷óð ðàäèêàëüíî.

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9 Reply by Deadman

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Dexus wrote:

Almost nobody in Russia uses utf-8.

Are you really sure? Can you give some links to prove it?

Dexus wrote:

It's too hard to recode it without external tools..

Maybe it is... for Wendows users, which also SUX!

Dexus wrote:

cp1251/koi8-r/cp866 are good old codepages, that everybody knows,

LOL! Do you really KNOW all this encodings? I don't!

Dexus wrote:

and the main advantage - they are widespreaded and easy to recode/render without any external library.

Exactly! With utf8 you need nothing recode.

Dexus wrote:

without any external library.

What external library means? May be you use wrong operation system?

Dexus wrote:

Besides cyrillic text in utf-8 will be as big as in utf-16.

So what? Some webdevelopers put in their sites really huge advertisement swf/gif/jpg -files and organize monstrous banners-exchange nets, and nobody cares it!

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10 Reply by Deadman

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cp1251 SUX! So I recode this into UTF-8. Please do the same.

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