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Re: Русский перевод PunBB

Deadman wrote:

Âñ¸ òàêè îíè äåðüìî, õîòÿ ÿ è íå ñîâñåì òàê âûðàçèëñÿ, îñîáåííî êîè8. Äóìàþ íå íàäî îáúÿñíÿòü ïî÷åìó.

Îáüÿñíè.

Deadman wrote:

Íó, ýòî ñîâñåì íå òàê. Âçÿòü, õîòÿ áû iso-8859-5, ê ïðèìåðó. Âîò ÷åãî íå ñëåäîâàëî äîïóñêàòü, òàê ýòî òàêîãî çîîïàðêà.

Ýòî íå îò íàñ çàâèñèò. Ëþáàÿ ìàëîìàëüñêàÿ êîíòîðà ïî òèïó ìàéêðîñîôòà ñòàðàåòñÿ ïðîïèõíóòü ñâîé ñòàíäàðò. Âîò òîëüêî íå ìîãó ïðèïîìíèòü, êòî iso-8859-5 ââ¸ë.

Deadman wrote:

Íåáëàãîäàðíûå, äëÿ âàñ ñòàðàþòñÿ æå.

Îíè ðåøàþò ñóãóáî ëè÷íûå ïðîáëåìû, è èíòåðåñû ïîëüçîâàòåëåé èõ çàòðàãèâàþò ïîñòîëüêó-ïîñêîëüêó...

Deadman wrote:

P.S. ß ñ÷èòàþ, ÷òî èäåàëüíûì ðåøåíèåì ïðîáëåìû, áûëî áû ââåäåíèÿ íà ãîñóäàðñòâåííîì óðîâíå òðàíñëèòà, êàê â ÿïîíèè íàïðèìåð, è ñî âðåìåíåì - îòêàç îò êèðèëèöû, íî ýòî óæ ÷åðåç÷óð ðàäèêàëüíî.

Òû äëÿ íà÷àëà ïîñ÷èòàé â êàêóþ ýòî êîïåå÷êó âûëüåòñÿ. Êàêóþ íåãàòèâíóþ ðåàêöèþ ýòî âûçîâåò ó îáùåñòâà, êîòîðîå çàñòàâÿò ïèñàòü, ÷èòàòü èíñòðàííûìè ÷óæåðîäíûìè áóêâàìè. Êèðèëè÷à, êñòàòè, íàìíîãî ëó÷øå ïðèñïîñîáëåííà ê ïèñüìåííîñòè, ÷åì ëàòèíèöà.

Deadman wrote:

Òîãäà óæ ëó÷øå iso-8859-5.

×åì?

Deadman wrote:

Ïðîñòî ïåðâûé ïîñò ïðî cp1251 áûë íà àíãëèéñêîì, êñòàòè íàãëÿäíî ïðîäåìîíñòðèðîâàë ÷òî cp1251 - îòñòîé.

Êàê ýòî îí ïðîäåìîíñòðèðîâàë?

Deadman wrote:

Ïîëüçà îò utf çàêëþ÷àåòñÿ â óíèâåðñàëüíîñòè(ïîääåðæêå âñåõ âèäîâ ïèñüìåííîñòè), ÷òî â çíà÷èòåëüíîé ñòåïåíè îáëåã÷àåò ðàçðàáîòêó ïî, â òîì ÷èñëå è âåá-îðèåíèðîâàííîãî.

Íèêòî òåáå íå çàïðåùàåò èñïîëüçîâàòü, òî ÷òî òåáå íðàâèòüñÿ. À âîò ïðèíóæäåíèå - ýòî íå ñîâñåì õîðîøî.

Deadman wrote:

IMHO, you should be a perverse to use cp1251 on unixlike systems.

Èñïîëüçóþ ÷òî õî÷ó. Ñâîáîäà âûáîðà, çíàåòå ëè. wink Íå ýòî ëè èõ ãëàâíûé ïðèíöèï?

Dexus wrote:

Êàê ÿ óæå ñêàçàë - ÿ äîïóñêàþ utf-8 â èíòåðíàöèîíàëüíûõ, à íå ðóññêèõ ñàéòàõ, è â îáû÷íûõ ïðèëîæåíèÿõ.

Íî ïî÷åìó òàê êàòåãîðè÷íî? Ïîìîåìó êàæäûé â ïðàâå äåëàòü òî, ÷òî åìó íðàâèòñÿ ñî ñâîèì êîìïîì, ôîðóìîì, ïðîãðàìàìè. smile

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  • Registered: 2005-04-13
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Re: Русский перевод PunBB

Dexus wrote:

Deadman, ñæàòûå ñòðàíè÷êè âî 1-õ - ïîääåðæèâàþò íå âñå ñåðâåðà, âî 2-õ - íå âñå êëèåíòà, â 3-õ - äàæå áóäó÷è ñæàòûìè îíè áóäóòü íàìíîãî áîëüøå ÷åì ñæàòûå íà koi8-r/cp1251.

Ïîëüçà îò utf çàêëþ÷àåòñÿ â óíèâåðñàëüíîñòè(ïîääåðæêå âñåõ âèäîâ ïèñüìåííîñòè), ÷òî â çíà÷èòåëüíîé ñòåïåíè îáëåã÷àåò ðàçðàáîòêó ïî, â òîì ÷èñëå è âåá-îðèåíèðîâàííîãî.

 Ðîññèè íóæíî òîëüêî 2 âèäà ïèñüìåííîñòè: êèðèëëèöà è ëàòèíèöà. koi8-r/cp1251 âïîëíå óäîâëåòâîðÿþò ýòè íóæäû. Ïåðåêîäèðîâùèê èç îäíîé â äðóãóþ êàæäûé ïðîãðàììèñò â íà÷àëå ñâîåé äåÿòåëüíîñòè äåëàåò. Íèêàêèõ "èçâðàùåíèé" â ýòîì íåò.

Êàê ÿ óæå ñêàçàë - ÿ äîïóñêàþ utf-8 â èíòåðíàöèîíàëüíûõ, à íå ðóññêèõ ñàéòàõ, è â îáû÷íûõ ïðèëîæåíèÿõ.
Èñïîëüçîâàíèå utf-8 â ðåãóëÿðíîì ñàéòîñòðîèòåëüñòâå ìàëî îòëè÷àåòñÿ îò äîêóìåíòîîáîðîòà â RTF. Òîæå - äîñòàòî÷íî óíèâåðñàëüíàÿ êîäèðîâêà. È äàæå êàðòèíêè âíåäðÿþòñÿ.
Íî ýòî - èçâðàò. Ýòî "òèïà ðàñøèðåíèå" êîäèðîâîê âûõîäèò áîêîì äëÿ êàðìàíà è íåðâîâ. Ìíîãî ëè ïðîãðàìì ñòàðûõ ïîääåðæèâàþò åãî?
È â þíèêñàõ cp1251 èñïîëüçóåòñÿ âïîëíå òàê áåç ïðîáëåì. Ïåðåêîäèðîâùèêè íà êàæäîì øàãó âàëÿþòñÿ.

Âîñïîëüçóéòåñü ïðèíöèïîì îêêàìà - íå ðàçìíîæàéòå ñóùíîñòåé áåç íàäîáíîñòè. Íèêòî îñîáî íå ñòðàäàë áåç utf-8.

ÇÛ: Ïî òîíó òâîèõ ñîîáùåíèé ìîãó äîáàâèòü: îñòàâü ñâîè êîñìîïîëèòè÷åñêèå èäåè äëÿ ñâîèõ ïîòîìêîâ. Íå ñòîèò ïåðåêëàäûâàòü íåíàâèñòü ê ÿçûêó â ñâîþ êàæäîäíåâíóþ äåÿòåëüíîñòü. Ìîæíî ïëîõî êîí÷èòü (íåðâû íå âîññòàíàâëèâàþòñÿ).

ß òàê ïîíÿë òû âîîáùå äàë¸ê îò ÈÒ-òåõíîëîãèé, èíà÷å íå ñòàë áû ïîðîòü òàêóþ ÷óøü. Ê òîìó æå ïðîñìàòðèâàåòñÿ ÿðîå íåæåëàíèå òðåçâî îöåíèâàòü ðåàëüíîñòü, è ïîëíîå èãíîðèðîâàíèå ôàêòîâ. È êàê âñåãäà â òàêèõ ñëó÷àõ íåñïîñîáíîñòü óáåäèòåëüíî âîçðàçèòü àïïîíåòó çàìåíÿåòñÿ íà ëè÷íûå îñêîðáëåíèÿ.  ëþáîì ñëó÷àå ñ÷èòàþ áåññìûñëåííûì ïðîäîëæåíèå äèñêóññèè.

  • Registered: 2004-03-23
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Re: Русский перевод PunBB

w3c ?????? ?? ??????????? ????????? ????????? UTF-8 ? ??????.
??? ??????? ?????

29 Reply by Dexus

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Re: Русский перевод PunBB

Aleksei, ????? ?????????

Deadman, ?? ??, "?????", ? 92 ???? ? ???? ??????? ???????. ?????? ???? ????????? - ??????????? ? ????. ???????? ???????? ?? ????????.. ?? ???? ??? ???????? ??????? smile ?? ????? ?????????? ?? ??????? ?? ???? ??????? ???????? ???????? ?? ???????. ?????????? ????? ?? ????.

30 Reply by adsh

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Re: Русский перевод PunBB

Aleksei wrote:

w3c ?????? ?? ??????????? ????????? ????????? UTF-8 ? ??????.
??? ??????? ?????

URL ??????????. ??? ??? ??? ???? ? ????.

adsh's Website

  • Registered: 2004-03-23
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Re: Русский перевод PunBB

????? ????? ???????? ????????? c ?????????? UTF-8 ? ??????? ????????? w3c:

http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http% … Fmain.html

??????:

NOTE: :
The Unicode Byte-Order Mark (BOM) in UTF-8 encoded files is known to cause problems for some text editors and older browsers. You may want to consider avoiding its use until it is better supported.

32 Reply by adsh (edited by adsh 2005-04-17 22:28)

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Re: Русский перевод PunBB

????????? - ?????? ??????? ???????? ?????? ?? ????????, ??? ? ????????? ?????????. ?????? - ??? ?? ????????? ? ??????? ??????? ?????????. ??? ??????? - ?? ???????? ?????? ???????? ?????? ?????????.

???????? ??? ????????? ??? ????????????? ?? ?????? ????? ??????? ????????? CMS.

adsh's Website

  • Registered: 2004-03-23
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Re: Русский перевод PunBB

? ??? ???????????????? ????? ?? ??????.. ?? ?????????? ?? ???????? ?? ???????????? ????????????? ?? ?????? ??????.
???-8 ????? ???????? ???? ? ????????????????? - ?????? ? ????????????? ? CMS

34 Reply by Deadman (edited by Deadman 2005-04-19 04:36)

  • Registered: 2005-04-13
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Re: Русский перевод PunBB

Aleksei wrote:

????? ????? ???????? ????????? c ?????????? UTF-8 ? ??????? ????????? w3c:

http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http% … Fmain.html

??????:

NOTE: :
The Unicode Byte-Order Mark (BOM) in UTF-8 encoded files is known to cause problems for some text editors and older browsers. You may want to consider avoiding its use until it is better supported.

2Aleksei ????? ?????????? - ?? ??????????! ?????? ??????????? ??????????????? ?????!
?? ?????????, ????? ??????????!

  • Registered: 2004-03-23
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Re: Русский перевод PunBB

Deadman
????? ?????? ????? Unicode (????) ? ?????????????? ?????? UTF-8, ??? ????????, ???????? ???????? ??? ????????? ?????????? ?????? ? ??????? ?????????. ?? ?????? ?????? ??????????? ???? ?? ??? ?????????????, ???? ??? ????? ?? ??????????.

??? ???? ??????? ?????? smile - ???????? ? ??? ??? ???? ?? ??? ????? (?????????) ??????? - ????????? ???????? ? ???????????? ?????? ?????? ?????? UTF-8

? ?? ?????????????? ???????????? ??????? ???????? ? ?? ?????? ??????????? ????????? ? ???????.

36 Reply by adsh

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Re: Русский перевод PunBB

????? ??? ??? ??????? big_smile ?

??? ???????? "???????? ????????? ? ????????? ?????????? ??????????? ? _????????_ ??????????". ???? UTF-8 ???????????? ????????? ???? - ??????? ??????? ???, ?. ?. ??? ??????????? ???????? ??????? ? ???????? ??? ???????.

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Re: Русский перевод PunBB

adsh wrote:

????? ??? ??? ??????? big_smile ?

??? ???????? "???????? ????????? ? ????????? ?????????? ??????????? ? _????????_ ??????????". ???? UTF-8 ???????????? ????????? ???? - ??????? ??????? ???, ?. ?. ??? ??????????? ???????? ??????? ? ???????? ??? ???????.

- ???????? ???????.

- ??? ???????, ??? ???? ?? ?? ?? ????????, ??? ???? ???????. big_smile

Linux 4ever!

38 Reply by Dexus

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Re: Русский перевод PunBB

???. ? ?? ?? ????? ????? ???????????? ?????????, ??????? ??? ??? ??????????, ? ?????? ???????????? ?????? ??, ??????? ??? ???????? ??????? smile

  • Registered: 2005-04-13
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Re: Русский перевод PunBB

Aleksei wrote:

Deadman
????? ?????? ????? Unicode (????) ? ?????????????? ?????? UTF-8, ??? ????????, ???????? ???????? ??? ????????? ?????????? ?????? ? ??????? ?????????. ?? ?????? ?????? ??????????? ???? ?? ??? ?????????????, ???? ??? ????? ?? ??????????.

??? ???? ??????? ?????? smile - ???????? ? ??? ??? ???? ?? ??? ????? (?????????) ??????? - ????????? ???????? ? ???????????? ?????? ?????? ?????? UTF-8

? ?? ?????????????? ???????????? ??????? ???????? ? ?? ?????? ??????????? ????????? ? ???????.

???! ?????? ????? ?????. ?????? ??????? ??????? ??????? ? ????? ??????!? ?????? ??? ????? ????! ???, ? ?????? ???? ?? ????!

?????????.
Aleksei

40 Reply by Stemp

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Re: Русский перевод PunBB

Hello,
I am building a French/Russian Forum. And for this, I need an utf8 coded Russian language pack.
Where may I find it ?
Thanks.

Translation by Prompt (usually quite funny)
??????,
? ????? ???????????/?????????? ?????.
? ??? ?????, ? ???????? ? ?????????????? ?????????? ???????? ?????? utf8.
??? ? ???? ????? ????
???????.

  • From: Kyiv
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Re: Русский перевод PunBB

Stemp wrote:

Where may I find it ?

Use special comp program, for instance: iconv, asrecod

The iconv program converts the encoding of characters in inputfile from
       one coded character set to another. The result is written to standard
       output unless otherwise specified by the --output option.

You needed convert cp1251->utf-8

Russian language pack in cp1251 you can find on this forum.

Linux 4ever!

42 Reply by Stemp

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Re: Русский перевод PunBB

Well in fact, I've used iconv several times and I couldn't get a readable php file. So to proove it, I did it again.
And, it works smile
So I have now my languages packs (Russian and French) in UTF-8.
Thanks a lot for your help.

43 Reply by ubs

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Re: Русский перевод PunBB

??? ??? ?????????? ???? ???????????? UTF8-?????? lang-????, ??????? ? ???? ???????? ??????, ??????? ????? ?????, ?? ?????, ? ?????????? ???????? ?? ? UTF-8, ?????? ???????? ?? ??????, ??????? ??? ????. ???? ????-?? ??? ?????:
http://ambience.ru/tools/punbb.Russian-UTF8.rar

? ????? ??????, ????? ???????, ???? ru-UTF8 ???????? ????? ? ??????? ??????? ru-1251 ? Downloads, ?????? ??? ??? ?????? ?????????? ??????? ? ?????? ?? ???????, ???????, ??????, ????? ??? ???? ?? ???????, ??? ??? ?? ??????????????? (??? ?????) ???????? ???????? ????????? ????????????. ? ??? ????? ???????? ????? (???? ??????) ???????.

44 Reply by ubs (edited by ubs 2005-05-12 06:48)

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Re: Русский перевод PunBB

By the way, it would be quite a wise move to alter the default language pack from iso-8859-1 to UTF-8, because it will allow browsers not bother with choosing necessary charset and on post just dumping everything out as unicode. To my great surprise, this works reasonably fine even with older MySQL 3.23 (even though I realize that I lose correct sorting on the text fields this way). And here, on Textdrive fully unicode-compatible MySQL 4.1 should handle unicode stuff just perfectly.

Overhead of multibyte charset doesn't really look like a threat to me ? gzip/deflate is here for more than ten years now, and I have yet to see the real benchmarks which would show significant (i.e. tens of percent) advantage of gzipped single-byte over gzipped multi-byte. And, after all, UTF-8 doesn't hurt former iso-8859-1 pages even a little, because english text stays always in its natural single-byte form but added features (accomodating other languages/accented characters) really expands possibilities.

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Re: Русский перевод PunBB

ubs wrote:

?????? ??? ??? ?????? ?????????? ??????? ? ?????? ?? ???????, ???????, ??????, ????? ??? ???? ?? ???????, ??? ??? ?? ??????????????? (??? ?????) ???????? ???????? ????????? ????????????. ? ??? ????? ???????? ????? (???? ??????) ???????.

CP1251, ????????? ??? ????????, ???????? ? ???? ?????, ? ??? ????? ? ???????????, ? ???????????? ????????. ???????? ? ??????????? ????????? ?????????? ? koi8-r, ?? ?????? ? koi8-u ???????? ??? ????? ???????? ????????.

??????, ????? ????????????? ??? ????? ??? ??? ???????? ?? utf8 ????????????

Linux 4ever!

46 Reply by ubs (edited by ubs 2005-05-12 10:26)

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Re: Русский перевод PunBB

? ??????? ? Byte Order Mark (BOM) -- ??? ?? ??? ???????????? ?? ??????????? W3C. ??????? ????? ????? ?????? ?????????? ??????? ? ??????, ? ???????? ? ??? ?????? ? ???????.

?????-?? ?????? ??????? ??? ????, ????? ???????? ???8-?????, ?? ????????? ? ?????????? ?????? ?????????? Content-Type, ? ????????? ? ??? charset=utf-8. ??? ?????? ????? ??? ????????.

?? ????, ??? ???????? -- ???-8 ? ?????. ?? ??? ???? ???? ???????: GMail, ? ???????, ??????? ?????? ?????????? ????? ? ???????, ???????? ???? ??????????????? ?? ???? ????????????? utf8 ? base64. ??? ??? ?????? ???? ?????? ?????? ??? ? Outlook Express.

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Re: Русский перевод PunBB

ubs wrote:

By the way, it would be quite a wise move to alter the default language pack from iso-8859-1 to UTF-8, because it will allow browsers not bother with choosing necessary charset and on post just dumping everything out as unicode. To my great surprise, this works reasonably fine even with older MySQL 3.23 (even though I realize that I lose correct sorting on the text fields this way). And here, on Textdrive fully unicode-compatible MySQL 4.1 should handle unicode stuff just perfectly.

Overhead of multibyte charset doesn't really look like a threat to me ? gzip/deflate is here for more than ten years now, and I have yet to see the real benchmarks which would show significant (i.e. tens of percent) advantage of gzipped single-byte over gzipped multi-byte. And, after all, UTF-8 doesn't hurt former iso-8859-1 pages even a little, because english text stays always in its natural single-byte form but added features (accomodating other languages/accented characters) really expands possibilities.

I'm considering it. The problem is not MySQL, even though sorting and some other things are somewhat broken pre 4.1, but PHP. It does not support unicode or UTF-8 natively. Very commonly used functions as strlen(), substr(), strpos() etc are not UTF-8 safe and replacement functions (e.g. mbstring) is not enabled by default.

I wonder what percentage of all the worlds PHP installations have mbstring enabled.

"Programming is like sex: one mistake and you have to support it for the rest of your life."

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48 Reply by ubs

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Re: Русский перевод PunBB

What percentage? Very little, since it's a widespread issue and until now everybody seemed to get away with either ignoring multilanguage issues, or sticking with two language-setup (english + some national encoding).

But PHP changes. Slowly but steadily, hosting providers upgrade and migrate to PHP5, which is unicode-friendly and uses it as a native charset (as do Java and Python, for years already). So going the unicode/PHP5 way would in fact imply limited backwards compatibility, but with a promise to bring more accessible, more universal application.

But what I was talking about is simple replacement of "iso-8859-1" with "utf-8" in the lang pack to force all browsers in all user locales to stick to unicode (since official punbb forum itself became multilanguage, and for cyrillic charset implied encoding of iso-8859-* doesn't help anyway ? without enabling russian locale in PHP sorting suffers, even though string functions work fine).

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Re: Русский перевод PunBB

PHP5 is not unicode safe. All the common string functions are still iso-8859 only. Try running strlen() on an UTF-8 string in PHP5 and you'll see what I mean.

"Programming is like sex: one mistake and you have to support it for the rest of your life."

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50 Reply by ubs

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Re: Русский перевод PunBB

Thanks for pointing it out, I'll take a closer look at that (because I am building a multilanguage system that has to work with UTF8 from LiveJournal servers and I plan to move to TextDrive for its unbeatable offer of being the most technically advanced hosting service).