Topic: 1.2 Requests: using PunBB as mini-CMS

I want to move from my current feature-bloated CMS to PunBB, and use PunBB as more than just a forum.  I think PunBB should (must) be kept as fast & light as possible; this is a major competitive advantage.  However, I think we can make it work as a (mini) CMS with very little code bloat.  Here are some thoughts and requests...

1)  Use the ?Forum format? for different CMS services:  - news stories - articles - classified ads - wiki

2)  Do this by changing forum behavior and posting permissions:

Forum behavior : for each CMS service (generally), you will want to post only a topic, and not allow any replies.

Permissions :
    News - moderator/admin create/edit permission only
    Articles - registered users create permission; original poster edit permission (on own posts)
    Classified Ads - (same as articles)
    Wiki - all registered users create and edit permission on all pages

Users should be able to upload images, also possibly files (adobe acrobat docs, music files, spreadsheets, whatever).  Then these images (or files) can easily be inserted into their articles, classifieds, etc. 

3)  Feature requests:
?    File uploading for registered users (PLEASE)
?    File uploading might need checks and restrictions on file size, file type (extension) etc.
?    Possibly combine file uploading with GD or Imagemagick to force resize on large images
?    Automatically Prune posts from selected forum (Classified Ads : automatically prune posts greater than XX days old)
?    Buttons to insert BBCode formatting automatically ? ,  etc.
?    Formatting code (BBCode) highlighted in different color (e.g. blue); normal text in black (this would make writing and formatting articles or wiki pages much easier)

Thanks so much for PunBB!  I will likely use it as a CMS regardless of whether you add the design and feature requests above.  But anything that you can do that makes sense would be great!

James

James Melhuish

2

Re: 1.2 Requests: using PunBB as mini-CMS

Continue to the madness !!! smile We could create too a blog ! smile PunBB would be so a complete interactive web interface smile

3

Re: 1.2 Requests: using PunBB as mini-CMS

Some of the user permissions stuff is making it into v1.2. (at least it was last time I looked at the to do list)

I don't get the highlighting bbcode. If you mean highlighting it as your writing how are you going to get a textarea to cooperate with that? Or were you thinking of replacing a textarea with something more flashy?

Re: 1.2 Requests: using PunBB as mini-CMS

JMelhuish wrote:

3)  Feature requests:
?    File uploading for registered users (PLEASE)
?    File uploading might need checks and restrictions on file size, file type (extension) etc.
?    Possibly combine file uploading with GD or Imagemagick to force resize on large images

Well I have done the Attachment mod for pre 1.2 versions, and as soon as 1.2 is ready I'll start rewriting it (and adding some features, like saving on disk instead of database), those 2 first points are covered in my mod (and at least earlier Rickard said he didn't want attachments in the forum base, so the mod will likely be needed to get attachments)

What I won't make in the attachment mod is resizing of images, it can bring down a server to a standstill, and the image quality is often much better if the person who made the image will make it in correct size first.

So, as soon as 1.2 is released, I'll start working on convertin my mod (but looks like a complete rewrite due to usergroups and other features ... and I'll try to make the mod easier to install wink)

5

Re: 1.2 Requests: using PunBB as mini-CMS

What I won't make in the attachment mod is resizing of images, it can bring down a server to a standstill, and the image quality is often much better if the person who made the image will make it in correct size first.

true with GD
false with imagemagick

Re: 1.2 Requests: using PunBB as mini-CMS

Paul wrote:

We could create too a blog !

Yes we could!  Simple, and little code bloat.

Paul wrote:

I don't get the highlighting bbcode. If you mean highlighting it as your writing how are you going to get a textarea to cooperate with that?

Good question, not being any sort of expert programmer, I hadn't thought of that.  I consider colored/highlighted BBCode to be a minor feature, but it would make it easier to write long articles with lots of formatting.  (Or to edit articles with much formatting).    I don't know what the alternatives to a Text Area are; again I would not want code bloat or performance loss. 

I guess my ideal desired behavior would be to write text in the editing field (TextArea), then select text that you want formatted (e.g. Bold) and click a link or button to Bold the text.  At this point, PunBB could rewrite to the editing field encapsulating the formatting information.  I understand that a link or button could already add the formatting text to the TextArea (Please add this as an option to 1.2), but it would still be nice to have that formatting text in a different color. Even better would be an editing field that allowed the BBCode to be hidden, and the results of that code displayed.  Are there any simple text editing fields that allow that kind of hidden formatting?

Another idea would be to keep a Preview Pane active as you entered text in the TextArea.  When a user highlights some text (in TextArea) and clicks a formatting link (Bold), the BBCode gets added to the TextArea and the results are updated immediately in the Preview Pane.

Frank H wrote:

and at least earlier Rickard said he didn't want attachments in the forum base

This I don?t understand.  Rickard must have a reason for this, but I couldn?t find it.  Personally, I think it is incredibly useful for web forum software to have the ability to attach (upload) files based on user permissions (e.g. registered users only).  Since PunBB is managing user permission already, the file uploading should be somehow integrated.

I don?t necessarily think a file needs to be attached to a post to be useful, because attaching it through some mechanism to a particular directory (or database table) would allow it to be referenced in a post (e.g. attach an image through a simple upload, then reference it using the image tags).

FEATURE REQUEST :
It would be wonderful to have FILE UPLOADS managed similar to Forums, and to my requests for Articles, Wikis, etc.  IOW, one could create a File Upload ?Forum? that could be named, or attached to a category.  A user entering that would see a list of files, similar to the list of topics (and the owner/uploader of the file, date of upload, etc.).  In this way, you could create ?Galleries? of images, or ?Directories? of music files, etc. 

All of these CMS services could be based on the same code base as the forum, but would really enhance PunBB as an interactive community tool.

James

James Melhuish

7 (edited by Rickard 2004-09-24 13:34)

Re: 1.2 Requests: using PunBB as mini-CMS

James: The reason I am hesitant to adding attachments support to PunBB is the fact that it really isn't as simple as it sounds. Just have a look at Frank H's attachment mod. It's not like it's 30 lines of code. There are lots of things to consider: user group permissions, file system permissions, security, admin management of the file archive (prune, delete individual files etc.), user management of uploaded files (delete, replace, rename etc.). I have yet to find a solution that is short and neat, and until that happens, I'm not ready to implement it.

PunBB's strength lies in it's simplicity, not it's feature set. It's a bulletin board, not a CMS. I intend to keep it that way. I hate products that do a little bit of everything, but do it rather poorly. If I want a CMS, I'll write one from the groud up instead. Integration with other products if great, but they must be separate.

Doug McIlroy, old-school UNIX geek extraordinaire, once said the following regarding "The UNIX Philosophy":

Make each program do one thing well. To do a new job, build afresh rather than complicate old programs by adding new features.

"Programming is like sex: one mistake and you have to support it for the rest of your life."

Re: 1.2 Requests: using PunBB as mini-CMS

Rickard wrote:

I have yet to find a solution that is short and neat, and until that happens, I'm not ready to implement it. PunBB's strength lies in it's simplicity, not it's feature set.

Agreed.  Keep it simple, light, and fast.  But if you do find a short and neat solution, even one that is relatively simplistic on file management (but still safe!), please implement it.  Thanks!

James

James Melhuish

9

Re: 1.2 Requests: using PunBB as mini-CMS

Could file upload functionality be faked. What I mean is have an entirely seperate file upload script which looks and feels like PunBB and even shares the styles and login. It would have it's own admin system which would be linked to via a menu item in PunBB admin. This script then gets linked to via redirect forums in an upload category on the index page. Done properly it could be made to appear as if there were internal upload forums when in fact it was an entirely different application.

I know thats actually a lot more code but I figure a lightweight forum plus a lightweight file upload script is better and faster than trying to combine all sorts of functionality into one script even if there is a lot of duplication between them.

On the code highlighting thing, there are alternatives to textarea which are really more like mini text editiors. Take a look at this http://www.interactivetools.com/products/htmlarea/
Such a system would bloat the code and degrade performance. However, there is nothing wrong with somebody creating a modded version of post.php/edit.php to use an advanced editor (I say this from a position of total ignorance when it comes to php).

Re: 1.2 Requests: using PunBB as mini-CMS

Paul wrote:

What I mean is have an entirely seperate file upload script which looks and feels like PunBB and even shares the styles and login.

I would be completely happy with that, as long as it used the same user database tables and permissions from PunBB.  I don't even think a completely "PunBB-copied" interface is necessary, just another PHP page with file upload options.

Rickard wrote:

It's a bulletin board, not a CMS. I intend to keep it that way. I hate products that do a little bit of everything, but do it rather poorly.

I personally think that the PunBB-mini-CMS that I described would do CMS rather well.  Fast, efficient, user-friendly.  The parsing efficiency of PunBB would still remain high if the CMS features were not turned on.  And even turned on, the reuse of the forum code would be (?) far more efficient than standalone code for each CMS feature.  From a Human-Factors point of view (the company I work for does Human Factors Engineering), the ease of learning and simplicity of use of a CMS that mirrors the common forum behavior is highly attractive. 

James

James Melhuish

Re: 1.2 Requests: using PunBB as mini-CMS

JMelhuish wrote:

I personally think that the PunBB-mini-CMS that I described would do CMS rather well.  Fast, efficient, user-friendly.  The parsing efficiency of PunBB would still remain high if the CMS features were not turned on.  And even turned on, the reuse of the forum code would be (?) far more efficient than standalone code for each CMS feature.

A product that does more than one thing can be the holy grail for people who actually need it to do those things, but for everyone else, it just degrades performance and bloats up the codebase. The classic example is Windows vs. e.g. Linux. If you're setting up a computer that is only going to send e-mails, why in the world would you want a graphical user interface, a media player, a browser, e-mail software etc etc? Having those things actually makes the product less suitable for the task at hand.

"Programming is like sex: one mistake and you have to support it for the rest of your life."

12

Re: 1.2 Requests: using PunBB as mini-CMS

Rickard wrote:

A product that does more than one thing can be the holy grail for people who actually need it to do those things, but for everyone else, it just degrades performance and bloats up the codebase.

Totally agree, the right tool for the job.

Pun is an excellent discussion forum, it does it's job rather well.

I tend to pick best of breed apps and help them work together, that's why LAMP is such a big hit and the Microsoft way is on it's way out..

13

Re: 1.2 Requests: using PunBB as mini-CMS

Hi,

I'm a complete newbie here, but just wanted to say that the PunBB does seem very fast, light and easy to use. 

Will it be up on opensourceCMS soon for testing?

Also I do have one little (probably BIG) feature request:

It would be great if you could ensure it's compatibility, visual consistency, and speed while still using anonymous proxifiers. 

That's just my personal wish, but don't know if that holds broader appeal.

Also, do you know how *secure* or anonymous PunBB could be maintained using anonymous browsers (eg. Anonymizer.com), from the perspective of visitors and forum contributors, alike?


Thanks for letting me share my comments.

dg

Re: 1.2 Requests: using PunBB as mini-CMS

dg wrote:

Will it be up on opensourceCMS soon for testing?

The current stable version (1.1) already is:

http://www.opensourcecms.com/index.php? … amp;id=361

dg wrote:

Also I do have one little (probably BIG) feature request:

It would be great if you could ensure it's compatibility, visual consistency, and speed while still using anonymous proxifiers. 

That's just my personal wish, but don't know if that holds broader appeal.

Also, do you know how *secure* or anonymous PunBB could be maintained using anonymous browsers (eg. Anonymizer.com), from the perspective of visitors and forum contributors, alike?

I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you mean. Is PunBB's compability, visual consistency and speed affected by the use of an anonymous proxy?

I don't get what you said about how secure or anonymous PunBB could be maintained either. Please explain.

"Programming is like sex: one mistake and you have to support it for the rest of your life."

Re: 1.2 Requests: using PunBB as mini-CMS

i would guess the "compability, visual consistency and speed" would only change due to the proxy not working properly

Re: 1.2 Requests: using PunBB as mini-CMS

Rickard wrote:

A product that does more than one thing can be the holy grail for people who actually need it to do those things, but for everyone else, it just degrades performance and bloats up the codebase.

Thanks for taking the time to think about and answer my questions.  I think for my personal needs (and maybe other people too), a very minor code/feature addition would suffice.  All I need to make the Forums more useful are two additions that I hope would not bloat the code:

1)  Ability to set a forum so that only Topics are posted (no replies possible)
2)  Ability to pre-assign Topic ownership rights inside that forum

An example of feature 2), one Forum would allow edit ownership only to the original poster (this is the current behavior, plus moderator/admin edit?), while another forum would allow (be pre-assigned) edit ownership to all registered users, regardless of who created the post.

I can live without PunBB containing file uploads, but the two features above would really help.  Thanks again for both the forum and for reading this.

James

James Melhuish

17

Re: 1.2 Requests: using PunBB as mini-CMS

So what you are looking for is the functionality of an article/tutorial/story publishing system where the articles/tutorials/stories can be composed and edited by multiple contributors. Is that right?

18

Re: 1.2 Requests: using PunBB as mini-CMS

Something like Scoop might be what he's looking for.  I don't know.  (Hope you don't mind my linking to it.)

Re: 1.2 Requests: using PunBB as mini-CMS

Paul wrote:

So what you are looking for is the functionality of an article/tutorial/story publishing system where the articles/tutorials/stories can be composed and edited by multiple contributors. Is that right?

Yes pretty much.  The wiki portion would be composed/edited by multiple contributors, whereas simple articles, new stories, classifieds, etc. would be composed/edited only by the original contributor.  This would work in PunBB if "Replies" to Topics was turned off.

Yes, Scoop appears to be something like what I am looking for.  Simple functionality where users can discuss in a forum, add (personal) technical articles, share contributions to the same article etc.

My current audio website running on tiki is http://fullrangedriver.com/

A test site with PunBB is running at http://melhuish.org/punbb/

James

James Melhuish

Re: 1.2 Requests: using PunBB as mini-CMS

JMelhuish: But what you asking for is hardly functionality that one would expect to find in a discussion forum. PunBB 1.2 will make it possible to assign permissions to a specific forum so that users are only able to e.g. post new topics (and not replies). The opposite will also be possible, e.g. users can post replies, but not new topics (suitable for news and other articles).

"Programming is like sex: one mistake and you have to support it for the rest of your life."

21 (edited by ShawnBrown 2004-09-26 01:03)

Re: 1.2 Requests: using PunBB as mini-CMS

JMelhuish wrote:

I want to move from my current feature-bloated CMS to PunBB, and use PunBB as more than just a forum.  I think PunBB should (must) be kept as fast & light as possible; this is a major competitive advantage.  However, I think we can make it work as a (mini) CMS with very little code bloat. ...

I posted a topic a few days ago about modelling Pun's internal script structure after XHTML 1.1's module structure (XHTML 1.1 Parallelism - http://punbb.org/forums/viewtopic.php?id=4708).

I was thinking that the basic install of PunBB would include a minimal set of modules to run a forum. But using it for things like CMS also seems to fit with this.

Bear with me here: each module could be a folder containing a small handful of that module's php scripts...

Let's say that a basic PunBB 2.0 setup includes the following module-folders:
  *Core (required: includes things like config, post, delete, edit, etc.)
  *Admin  (required)
  *MySQL_to_PunXML (a something_to_PunXML would be required)
  *PunXML_to_XHTML_Basic (a PunXML_to_something would be required)
  *Lang_En (one lang module would be required)
  *User (with user login, and post options)

That'd be the basic install which assumes you're using PunBB as a forum. But if you wanted to use it simply for CMS, you could take out the "User" module--so no one could log in or post except the admin and add "display:none;" in the CSS to turn off certain elements. Then, web surfers could browse the site and look at content without all of the usual forum trappings. It wouldn't be a full-featured CMS, but hey, it's made to be a forum.

And if you needed to, you could replace the Pun_to_XHTML_Basic module with Pun_to_XHTML_1.1, Pun_to_XHTML_Trans or whatever.

This type of setup would allow for a light version of CMS support with no code bloat at all... it'd be leaner than the full PunBB.

Anyway... I've taken a look at (and make a few mini-hacks to) PunBB's code so I know this idea isn't simply an add-on to PunBB as it stands now... although I am very pleased with PunBB 1.1.5. I like the module idea because I think it'll help PunBB stay lean and flexible in the long term future.

Latest Open Source project: [img=Templar PHP]http://code.google.com/p/templarphp/logo?logo_id=1251758459[/img]

TemplarPHP - A cascading template framework for PHP.

Re: 1.2 Requests: using PunBB as mini-CMS

I think that PunBB's no-bloat philosophy applies not only to the feature-set but also to the execution time. Adding an immediate PunXML tier, would definately increase execution time, and while this trade-off for modularity and code reusability might very well be worthwhile, the question is; does it fit Rickard's philosophy?
By the way Rickard, when is 2.0 going to be released :-)

Re: 1.2 Requests: using PunBB as mini-CMS

CodeDuck wrote:

By the way Rickard, when is 2.0 going to be released :-)

When it's done? :)

"Programming is like sex: one mistake and you have to support it for the rest of your life."

24

Re: 1.2 Requests: using PunBB as mini-CMS

The problem with Scoop is that it isn't a good format for carrying on conversations - it doesn't work well as a forum.  I don't think you'll be happy using Scoop as a forum.

Rickard wrote:

PunBB 1.2 will make it possible to assign permissions to a specific forum so that users are only able to e.g. post new topics (and not replies). The opposite will also be possible, e.g. users can post replies, but not new topics (suitable for news and other articles).

That sounds perfect.  (I like it, anyway.)  Doesn't that do what you're asking for?

Re: 1.2 Requests: using PunBB as mini-CMS

CodeDuck wrote:

I think that PunBB's no-bloat philosophy applies not only to the feature-set but also to the execution time. Adding an immediate PunXML tier, would definately increase execution time...

Ouch. You're certainly right about that... I know I'd find that annoying. I just finished a flat file mini-search-engine/parser for large XML flat files--I'm able to keep things very-zippy under high server load because they're static and I can cache them... but that doesn't sound like a viable option with an ever changing forum.

Maybe a straight MySQL_to_XHTML module then?

Again, all vapor-ware musings...

Latest Open Source project: [img=Templar PHP]http://code.google.com/p/templarphp/logo?logo_id=1251758459[/img]

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